Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby GC13 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:38 am

NeatNit wrote:Still, I really feel like this is the type of thing law is in place for... That game is an absolute rip-off. Not saying it's a bad game, it might even be better than PA, but they can't be more blunt except maybe saying "we stole all our ideas from PA". Maybe not even then.
Seems to share more similarities with Evil Genius than with Prison Architect. Also the method of tunneling and the way he talks about building up tech levels makes me think more Gnomoria/Dwarf Fortress. And we'll see how similar the art style is once he hires that artist he wants to get.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby Brnthay » Fri Sep 20, 2013 2:01 am

RGeezy911 wrote:
Brnthay wrote:Inspired? I would us a different word... Stolen


Ideas cannot be protected, but what is created from it can be copyrighted to the creator. However, multiple DIFFERENT creations can come from a single idea, and can also be copyrighted. The thought to have a simple art style, nothing too detailed or extravagant and still making sense to the viewer, can be used by anyone... The characters in both Prison Architect and Rimworld may look similar, but are still different in their unique ways. The same can be said for the textures. Legally, I believe they're fine.

Edit: I would also like to test Rimworld once available.


Wrong patents are ideas, copyrights are anything that is draws. While you are right the style can not be but the people, wall can be copyrighted. The style of game play can also be patented all long with the game itself. To do all of that all you have to prove it is "original work". The word original in american patent law has a very loses definition.

But again no real way of know, unless they sue and as some of you have said, (going to have to take you word for it) they probably won't sue.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:07 am

Brnthay wrote:
Inspired? I would us a different word... Stolen


Are you fu******* kidding me? Why are you saying this engine as stolen?


If you are smart enough, then go on! Make an engine! And see how much money you will spend.

Those brand new developers first time make a game, RimWorld. They are not old developers like IV...They made this engine on their own...


See the gameplay, IV didnt even implemented gunfights in PA, while in RimWorld, developers have implemented. There are a lot differences...

Wake up your brain...Google how much an engine cost to make if you think that engine is stolen...Also, they made their own engine anyways, which is similar to PA, but who minds, its not against the law...They are not rich...If you are rich, go make an engine for them.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby NeatNit » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:39 am

thekillergreece wrote:
Brnthay wrote:
Inspired? I would us a different word... Stolen


Are you fu******* kidding me? Why are you saying this engine as stolen?


If you are smart enough, then go on! Make an engine! And see how much money you will spend.

Those brand new developers first time make a game, RimWorld. They are not old developers like IV...They made this engine on their own...


See the gameplay, IV didnt even implemented gunfights in PA, while in RimWorld, developers have implemented. There are a lot differences...

Wake up your brain...Google how much an engine cost to make if you think that engine is stolen...Also, they made their own engine anyways, which is similar to PA, but who minds, its not against the law...They are not rich...If you are rich, go make an engine for them.

You sound like a total idiot.

Even if they made their own engine there is NO REASON why their game should look exactly the same as PA.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:36 pm

NeatNit wrote:
thekillergreece wrote:
Brnthay wrote:
Inspired? I would us a different word... Stolen


Are you fu******* kidding me? Why are you saying this engine as stolen?


If you are smart enough, then go on! Make an engine! And see how much money you will spend.

Those brand new developers first time make a game, RimWorld. They are not old developers like IV...They made this engine on their own...


See the gameplay, IV didnt even implemented gunfights in PA, while in RimWorld, developers have implemented. There are a lot differences...

Wake up your brain...Google how much an engine cost to make if you think that engine is stolen...Also, they made their own engine anyways, which is similar to PA, but who minds, its not against the law...They are not rich...If you are rich, go make an engine for them.

You sound like a total idiot.

Even if they made their own engine there is NO REASON why their game should look exactly the same as PA.


Lol, see who talks haha...Re-watch the video...Does it feature prison with prisoners and guards?Lol, you are seriously the idiot here...Learn how to watch,read and then comment...Dumb people these days.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby NeatNit » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:49 pm

I'm talking about a graphical style, dimwit.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Sep 20, 2013 1:55 pm

NeatNit wrote:I'm talking about a graphical style, dimwit.



Would wonder who cares about the damn graphics. The reason why fanboy wars exist is because of graphics arguement.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby xander » Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:36 pm

NeatNit: The graphical style of Defcon is meant to be similar to that of War Games. Did IV steal the intellectual property of that movie? No. More importantly, as far as I can tell, RimWorld has not copied the assets from Introversion, but simply built assets along a similar line, i.e. somewhat cartoony and abstract. Finally, who is to say that RimWorld won't dramatically change during the course of development? Look at some of the very early Prison Architect alpha videos (from before the public alpha began)---the art style is dramatically different. You could also look at some of the very early Darwinia technology demonstrations, in which the DGs are sprites directly lifted from Doom (as I recall).

It is far to early to cry "Theft!", and even then, I don't think that such cries are justified.

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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby NeatNit » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:07 pm

I do realize that it's too early and it can all change, but somehow it seems unlikely. Moreover, players would undeniable associate it with PA, which can be an issue. To give a good example, read this:
Miscellany and Full Idiocy wrote:Did you guys make that Frozen Synapse game?
Yes. We are Mode 7 and we did indeed make Frozen Synapse.
What happened to Subversion?
That was a game by Introversion Software, who are not us.
I loved Uplink! And DEFCON!
Introversion.


This confusion was caused simply because the visual look of Frozen Synapse reminded players of Uplink. I have also found out that two good friends of mine were SURE Frozen Synapse was by Introversion. Now, what would the customers think of Introversion if Frozen Synapse sucked? (luckily it didn't.)

I have to go now but you get my point, don't you?
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Sep 20, 2013 5:19 pm

xander wrote:NeatNit: The graphical style of Defcon is meant to be similar to that of War Games. Did IV steal the intellectual property of that movie? No. More importantly, as far as I can tell, RimWorld has not copied the assets from Introversion, but simply built assets along a similar line, i.e. somewhat cartoony and abstract. Finally, who is to say that RimWorld won't dramatically change during the course of development? Look at some of the very early Prison Architect alpha videos (from before the public alpha began)---the art style is dramatically different. You could also look at some of the very early Darwinia technology demonstrations, in which the DGs are sprites directly lifted from Doom (as I recall).

It is far to early to cry "Theft!", and even then, I don't think that such cries are justified.

xander


True guy..
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby xander » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:31 pm

NeatNit wrote:I have to go now but you get my point, don't you?

If Frozen Synapse had sucked, no one would have played it or ever heard of the company that made it. I think that Frozen Synapse gets associated with IV because (a) the aesthetics are similar, (b) the narrative themes are similar, and (c) the quality of the game is similar. I don't see this as a problem, and I don't really get your point.

I will also counter your Frozen Synapse with all of the crappy Uplink clones that are out there. There are a metric fuck-ton of terrible games that have been made in the mold of Uplink, many of which outright copy the general theme of the game in an attempt to cash in on Introversion's success. Do you realistically think that any of these games have harmed IV in any significant way?

Finally, one word: Zynga. We may not approve of the way that Zynga takes other's work wholesale and rebrands it as their own, but they seem to be in the legal clear. Even if you think that RimWorld is a little too close to Prison Architect for comfort (for the record, I think it looks like a very different game, and would be hard pressed to see what has been "stolen" other than some superficial aesthetics and game mechanics that are similar to most construction sims), it seems that they are likely not violating any laws.

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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby NeatNit » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:00 pm

xander wrote:If Frozen Synapse had sucked, no one would have played it or ever heard of the company that made it.
Not necessarily, though I don't have any good examples off the top of my head.

xander wrote:I think that Frozen Synapse gets associated with IV because (a) the aesthetics are similar, (b) the narrative themes are similar, and (c) the quality of the game is similar. I don't see this as a problem, and I don't really get your point.
You don't see a problem with people thinking IV made a game that they didn't? This is similar to Flatout 3 ruining Bugbear's good name, after the rights for the series switched hands to the wrong places. Many people aren't aware that the third game was developed by a totally different company.
If Frozen Synapse (or any other game that Mode7 made/make) had sucked, people might think Introversion began to suck, and would doubt them more the next time they make a game. More importantly, consider the amount of people who pre-ordered Frozen Synapse in a heartbeat because they were sure it was made by the same people who made Uplink and are making Subversion? Or people who thought this is what Subversion turned into? This is all unintended of course, but that's a fair amount of people right there. This is the exact same thing happening right now.

xander wrote:I will also counter your Frozen Synapse with all of the crappy Uplink clones that are out there. There are a metric fuck-ton of terrible games that have been made in the mold of Uplink, many of which outright copy the general theme of the game in an attempt to cash in on Introversion's success. Do you realistically think that any of these games have harmed IV in any significant way?
To start with, yes. Not because of the reasons I said earlier, but because a player playing a crappy clone before hearing of the real game (which he might actually hear about through unrelated means) might be turned off from the real game because of the bad experience with hacking sims. Really though, a company doesn't generally make the same game twice. And if they did, they would just call it Uplink 2, not some other name altogether. But a completely different game using the same style and engine? Or maybe the same game but with a completely separate plot? That definitely happens, A LOT. Take for example GTA IV and Red Dead Redemption, and a few of Rockstar's other games such as L.A. Noire. And you can't say Saints Row (the first two) didn't latch off of Rockstar's success in a way.

And in case you're gonna say "but it's not the same engine!" - if someone can't tell that the game was made by different people, it's very likely he also can't tell it's a different engine.

xandra wrote:Finally, one word: Zynga. We may not approve of the way that Zynga takes other's work wholesale and rebrands it as their own, but they seem to be in the legal clear. Even if you think that RimWorld is a little too close to Prison Architect for comfort (for the record, I think it looks like a very different game, and would be hard pressed to see what has been "stolen" other than some superficial aesthetics and game mechanics that are similar to most construction sims), it seems that they are likely not violating any laws.

xander
I'm not too familiar with Zynga, I never cared for anything they could ever make, so I can't really say much about that. But I'm pretty sure they at least have their own graphical style. Counterexamples would be appreciated.

But yeah, either way they're probably in the legal clear, same goes for RimWorld.. But I really think a judge looking at PA and looking at RW would have to be blind to not agree that something seems off. I just don't know what the law says he might be able to do about that.



Lastly, don't put two spaces after punctuation.
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby MAdMaN » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:23 pm

NeatNit wrote:I'm not too familiar with Zynga, I never cared for anything they could ever make, so I can't really say much about that. But I'm pretty sure they at least have their own graphical style. Counterexamples would be appreciated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ea_vs ... arison.jpg
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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby xander » Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:58 pm

NeatNit wrote:Lastly, don't put two spaces after punctuation.

Proper typesetting places a small amount of extra space after a colon or terminal punctuation (period, exclamation point, question mark, and so on). The extra space enhances readability and is aesthetically more pleasing. The text editors and typewriters that I grew up with used fixed with fonts, and could not place extra space without manual intervention---honest-to-goodeness proper typesetting required the use of something like TeX and a printer capable of outputting properly typeset material (the computer itself was incapable of rendering vector images, so that wasn't a possibility). As such, the correct style for manuscripts, which I was taught at a young age, mandates that terminal punctuation and colons be followed by two spaces, rather than just one. This is what I was taught, and I am going to stick with it.

With modern technology, it doesn't fucking matter. A proper rendering or typesetting engine will ignore extra whitespace, and correctly format the interword and intersentence spacing. The user shouldn't have to care if they are hitting the spacebar once, twice, or 47 times. Anyone who thinks that this issue is so important that they feel the need to correct others on it is a pedantic dick. And wrong to boot (whether they claim that one space is correct, or that two spaces are correct).

As to the rest of your post, I do not see that either Mode7 or the creators of RimWorld are intentionally attempting to deceive players into playing their games, and I do not think that the similarities between IV's games and their games come anywhere near the level of copyright, patent, or trademark violation. I am forced to conclude that users who are confused are the party at fault. I should also note that the creator of RimWorld has specifically addressed this issue:
I drew some inspiration from PA. Moreso from its own inspiration, Dwarf Fortress.

We don't share any tools. Chris at IV has his own tech foundation; I built this one on Unity.

But they do look somewhat similar; that's my fault. I'm not a good enough artist to come up with a really good original look. There are only so many ways to render characters on a tiny grid without using animations.

I hope the differences between the game will be enough for people to look past the aesthetic similarities. And if I get some funding at some point I can get an artist to help develop a more unique look.

I do think the similarities are skin-deep. In gameplay the game resembles DF much more than PA.

How did you know I used to call it Starship Architect? That was back in March... I didn't think I ever mentioned that anywhere. CREEPY

source

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Re: Chris Challenged to a FIGHT!

Postby NeatNit » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:29 am

xander wrote:The user shouldn't have to care if they are hitting the spacebar once, twice, or 47 times.

I was actually kind of disappointed when I quoted you and found that you did not, in fact, put 47 spaces anywhere. You've failed me.

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