Subversion, an argument for MMO

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Subversion should be MMO?

Yes
7
16%
no
36
84%
 
Total votes: 43
Jordy...
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Subversion, an argument for MMO

Postby Jordy... » Sat Feb 20, 2010 3:18 pm

With the latest information about Subversion in my pocket (last nights BAFTA), I am going to plea for Subversion to be an MMO-game.

First of, sounds great and the direction Chris has taken seems somewhat like the majority of what the people have suggested in the suggestions topic, mere coincidence or not, I can not disagree with this direction.
However, since the gameplay direction will be somewhat familiar and "casual" I think there should be some strong innovative gameplay features that completely transform this gameplay from the "known" to the UNKNOWN. What I mean by this is, that familiar gameplay, like stealth in general, and hacking and carefully planning etc. is transformed by it's surrounding features into something never seen and totally new and AWESOME!

As you might have guessed, one of these features in my mind is that of playing this game in a massively multiplayer world.
Not only will this be really something new, atleast as far as I know, but it will also bring several benefits in my eyes to the gameplay of the game.

First of all, multiplayer seems always more fun, you feel like what you're doing really matters more, in context. And rather then beating an AI that has it's inevitable flaws and obscurities, you play against a real human that has it's own flaws ofcourse, but is able to learn and adapt over time.

Another important argument is that, you will not have to make alot of missions, however handcrafted or randomly, but instead could leave this to the players themself.
And if my interpretation is right, you mean to handraft the instruments for the gameplay, while randomly generate the world around it. If so, these handcrafted instruments could not be in better hands then the players themself, as they will know best, what they will like most.
Ofcourse players could make maps offline and put the up for a download for others to play them, but what is more a, amazing then a procedurally generated city with live humans in it fighting over control, over that city by stealth, all-out warfare, hacking, cheating, backstabbing etc.

I strongly believe, that if you set the right kind of "rules" and provide the right kind of instruments something truly amazing could emerge out of this MMO-world, and maybe if you haven't considered it yet, it's time to think about the possibility of an subscription plan.


Downsides are there as well ofcourse, making a single-player campaign to play is one thing, to let other people make a multiplayer game for themselfs is an wholy other thing.
I have no doubt, that such a thing can de-rail at many ways, most importantly will such a world emerge as a fun gameplay world, this always remains to be seen.

Another thing will be, I guess, the difficulties of setting up the needed service and maintainence of such a world, something I guess you're not familiar with, but I have no doubt you'll be able to do. However, money is needed to do such an thing. But I think that in the coming years it will become increasingly easier to do this and cheaper as well.


That all being said, if you really want to distinguish yourself from the others, this wil be THE CHANCE to do it, bungle below or jump to the top!
If CCtP can do it with EVE, then I have no doubt you will be able to do this with Subversion in an even bigger way, for the simple reason that Subversion carries far greater promises and that the gameplay attracts a far bigger audience.


PS. Please add satellites to the game, with wich you can spy and zoom-in from above, that would be awesome!!

Good luck!
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Postby Greeba » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:15 pm

I'd like to see the game come out, which it won't if they try and turn it into something an order of magnitude more complex than it already is. Chris said in the talk last night that Multiplayer wasn't something they were decided on, so it's definitely not going to be integral to the extent you suggest, and nor could it be from a studio IV's size.
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Postby tllotpfkamvpe » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:23 pm

I want subversion to be a FPS or a giant game of hide and seek. I've always dreamt of and fps based in a city, where you can go inside every single building.
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Postby _human_ » Sat Feb 20, 2010 7:05 pm

I admit that Subversion as MMO is an interesting idea, but it's, IMHO, a fantasy right now. As far as I understand having read half of the developers' blogs, Subrversion will be more complicated game than previous ones, therefore developing MMO Subversion would be harder and more time consuming than a single player version.
But still developers may release multiplayer version later like Darwinia and Multiwinia.
I've voted "no".
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Postby shinygerbil » Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:57 pm

tllotpfkamvpe wrote:a giant game of hide and seek
this would be fantastic. If it is not directly in the game, it is at least reasonable to assume that it could be within the scope of the game, i.e. possible to make within "user-generated missions" or similar. And that, in itself, is an indirect multiplayer element.
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Postby GreenRock » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:20 am

Where is the recent news on subversion?
I checked the development blog on the introversion website, but I saw no new post...
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Postby DinoSteve » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:24 am

GreenRock wrote:Where is the recent news on subversion?
I checked the development blog on the introversion website, but I saw no new post...


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02 ... more-25702
The above post is not intended as an attack on you. It's not about making you look stupid for not searching. It merely states the facts. Please don't be offended.
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Postby GreenRock » Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:28 am

DinoSteve wrote:
GreenRock wrote:Where is the recent news on subversion?
I checked the development blog on the introversion website, but I saw no new post...


http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/02 ... more-25702


Thank you, good lad.

Hopefully they stick to the game modes.
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Postby vanarbulax » Sun Feb 21, 2010 6:38 am

I've always, always wanted an MMO based around stealthing and hacking real player's organisations and stuff, and it's always been a tantalizing Idea but there are a few problems with it that I've never been able to think of a solution for.

1) The big destroying the little: Surely if people get powerful enough to group together they will pretty much be indestructible?

2) Actual playing time: If other people are meant to infiltrate an sabotage then surely what they are destroying will be persistent and tangible. Problem is people don't play all the time and people work on different timezones. Would you leave your buildings open to attack and effectively unguarded if people from your organization weren't online? Do assets just "lock-down" when no-ones online? If people are fighting for control over the city would you have a cyclical thing when all the ground taken would be lost to people in a later timezone after you go to bed?

3) Continual loss of progress: As fun as sabotage and counter-sabotage sounds it would suck to lose what you have been building for weeks. Either you frantically defend meaningful things or what is destroyed is effectively meaningless and the game becomes unexciting.

4) Griefers/random attacks: kind of goes with number 1, everyone looking for an easy target will pick small guys and start-ups effectively cementing the lead of an already established corporation. The only real way to combat this is something like EVE's different security sectors (which wouldn't be too bad for risk V reward) or some sort of fight authorization system which would remove the paranoia and surprise you could create with such a game.


With all of that in mind I voted "no", the problem is too complicated for something which is already being developed and for such a small team. Though I love the idea and desperately hope someone makes that sort of game (almost as much as I want someone to make a 256 spaceship dogfight game on the ps3 using MAG's server structure :D) it's not for subversion.

Also talking with piddling knowlodge of subversion, one thing I think could work is if you had the computer generate missions and then a group of people played multiplayer each doing different roles (someone reading the plans and directing, some people hacking, some people doing the shooty grunt work). But that's just a personal hope and probably beyond subversions scope. I still bet subversion will be great regardless!
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Postby Shwart!! » Sun Feb 21, 2010 7:34 am

For reasons above, I don't think Subversion would do well as an MMO. But, multiplayer could be interesting. Something like MW's Assault gamemode; you've got a complex, likely player-built, a player defending it, and an attacker. Defender monitors the systems, and tries to combat the infiltration. Attacker has some internal objective, like 'blow up a server room'.
That's about as close as I want it to get to an MMO, to be honest.

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Postby Greeba » Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:24 pm

Shwart!! wrote:For reasons above, I don't think Subversion would do well as an MMO. But, multiplayer could be interesting. Something like MW's Assault...

What, you mean PC only ;)

The vibe from Friday's talk was that Multiplayer was on the cards, but not driving the design of Subversion at this stage.
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Postby Jordy... » Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:25 pm

Ofcourse, I have to agree, it'll be hard, and yes, many ways to fail, but look at it from this perspective:

A: you got a reasonably well game about stealth, hacking and what not, fun sure, but what does Subversion bring in comparison to Splinter Cell, or Commando's, Hitman of even the upcoming Monaco. It'll bring more or less the same, with less theme that can submerge into the gameplay, if they go down this path I really hope they come up with some amazing innovative features that turns the tide.
Otherwise I hold my heart, and I won't be even sure whether I will play it, something I have been sure of for years.

B: on other hand, an MMO that bring allkinds of new things to the gameworld most notably Emergent gameplay as players built up a city and decorate it with all kinds of cool gadgets.
It could turn out to be something truly new and refreshing I think, and that is where IV should aim for in my opinion.

So weight these 2 options and I think the risk and time are worth it.
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Postby Greeba » Sun Feb 21, 2010 8:35 pm

Jordy... wrote:...I think the risk and time are worth it.


Then you weren't born to be a gambler, or a producer. Given an infinite budget (or a meaty one anyway), yes of course your idea has merit. But in this case, it's just never going to happen because Introversion are about 20 times smaller than they'd need to be to pull it off before running out of time and money.

Also, there's something fundamental you're missing. All of the demos and talks Chris have done mention the use of procedural content. This means a variety of worlds being generated automatically, either every time you play or perhaps just using a few keys/maps/models to make each level/chapter/world/city, or both. In an MMO, you have ONE WORLD with lots of people dipping in and out of it. So it's absolutely not the direction that Subversion's taken the whole time it's been in development.
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Postby vanarbulax » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:55 am

Jordy... wrote:A: you got a reasonably well game about stealth, hacking and what not, fun sure, but what does Subversion bring in comparison to Splinter Cell, or Commando's, Hitman of even the upcoming Monaco. It'll bring more or less the same, with less theme that can submerge into the gameplay, if they go down this path I really hope they come up with some amazing innovative features that turns the tide.
Otherwise I hold my heart, and I won't be even sure whether I will play it, something I have been sure of for years.


This is pretty much addressed in the most recent "It's all in you head"; yes there a games of similar themes of stealth and espionage but Subversion seems to be based much more around simulation and and emergent properties than first person action and scripted paths. If you can't see yourself getting into that game, and you expect a small company to develop more then, well I'm sorry your expectations are too high.

If IV were to turn around and see they were making an MMO like that my first reaction would be "really, can they pull it off?" (me being a natural skeptic) and yes I have no doubt that if they were to release a game like you allude to in your first post we would react in a very good way. We're not say the idea is bad, we're just saying realistically it isn't going to happen.

For example as I mentioned before I really want a 128 players per side space fleet battles on my PS3. It isn't actually as complex a design problem as an emergent espionage MMO, MAG has already proved that the technology exists, previous spacesims have proven that the gameplay is sound, heck space is even one of the easiest things to render (there being nothing much in it). But I don't expect anyone to make it soon, and I sure as hell wouldn't expect someone like IV to make it, that's just an unrealistic desire which will ultimately dissapoint.

Oh and this is not a personal attack but could you please read your posts out loud before posting them, some parts of them don't make structural sense when reading them.
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Postby elexis » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:26 am

vanarbulax wrote:For example as I mentioned before I really want a 128 players per side space fleet battles on my PS3. It isn't actually as complex a design problem as an emergent espionage MMO, MAG has already proved that the technology exists, previous spacesims have proven that the gameplay is sound, heck space is even one of the easiest things to render (there being nothing much in it)


Actually it is harder than one might expect. When you at first glance measure the epicness of a space combat sim there are two main closely related things people look at. The badassness of the ships and how many guns are strapped onto it. This poses both a graphical problem and a network problem.

While it's true that you dont have to render lots of environments and building etc, you do have to render a lot of bullets. Projectiles in space sims tend to be larger, brighter and hang around for longer than their fps counterparts. They are also often made from fancy post-process effects that in my experience are usually more taxing on the graphics card than drawing polygons. Another issue is that without cover and buildings it is entirely possible that every other person in the game can be on screen firing their laz0rs at the same time.

As for the networking side, depending on how the game is designed even the tiniest amount of latency could be an issue. In space sims it is entirely possible that the players can have speed and manouverability that is comparable and even equal to the projectiles being hurled at them. (think Tie Fighter here) If on one screen a player's dread missiles score a direct hit on the enemy and on the other he does a barrel-roll at the last minute, people will be annoyed.


Soo, yeah.


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