When the hell are the bugs gonna be patched?

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GhostWhoWalks
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Postby GhostWhoWalks » Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:56 am

I already know I’m gonna get flamed for this but what the hell :)

I’ve decided to be objective, because I think both sides have valid points. However, I think those asking for the patches are right, while others seem to have a case of fanboy syndrome. It’s a shame, but it seems that having the word “Veteran” under their name makes people think that they are experts at something. :)

Quote: from Jabberwocky on 4:31 am on Feb. 3, 2002[br]Hm.
Have you ever coded?
Have you ever made a piece of software?
Have you ever worked for a professional software house?
4 people is not a lot of people. Espically if they arent doing this with all their time. I dont think they can make a living off of doing this, so they probably have other jobs.
So you're asking for better, faster, cheaper results from a 4 man part-time development team? You're living in a dream.
9 thousand lines of code is really nothing to sneer at. Espically when you get into different systems and their idiosyncracities. Different OS's.



These kinds of comments aren’t necessary. Why? Because yes I do code, yes I have made a piece of software (at least I think so, it’s still code :)). Have you? Sadly, no I haven’t for a professional software company, but then again…neither has Introversion! Have you worked for professional software house? I’m not trying to “pick” on you Jabberwocky, but you seem to enjoy belittling others (and you’re the most vocal here); your entitled to your views and so is everyone else. With that said, I found your comments MAKE the cases of those you try to chastise. You’re 100% RIGHT when you say: “9 thousand lines of code is really nothing to sneer at. Espically when you get into different systems and their idiosyncracities. Different OS's.” However, Introversion IS a company, they ARE making money off this game, and they DO know code. With that said, the minute they had a product they were willing to market, sell, and distribute, Introversion became a FULL TIME job for these guys. That’s basic work ethic. This brings me to the next quote:

Quote: from stevemelend66 on 8:29 am on Feb. 3, 2002[br]ERRRHMMMM... Clearing my throat.
LOOK! IF YOU PAY FOR SOFTWARE, THEN THERE ARE CERTAIN EXPECTATIONS WHICH SHOULD BE MET.  I could understand if it was a free download on their website, you know, like a freeware game, but I bought it and it should be patched.  Too many people buy software and dont get bugs patched.  If 4 people wanted to make the game and sell the game, then when there is a problem, you must patch the game.  Nuff said.  By the way... I do code in c++ and i know it can be a pain in the ass when you have thousands of lines of code.  


Precisely!! I’m not saying this game is bug ridden or still in beta, far from it!!! I beta tested for the online RPG Anarchy ONLINE (more on this in a bit), which was released during the summer and is STILL in beta!! Introversion is making the SAME mistakes Funcom (often referred to as Fraudcom) for releasing patches that addressed game content issues and NOT bugs! Bottom-line, Uplink should AT LEAST be up to version 1.5 or even 2.0 by now. Instead, there hasn’t been a patch for ANYTHING (content or otherwise) in months. As I said, the game is far from beta. It runs, and runs extremely well. I would venture a guess and say that Uplink is probably 90-95% complete. Which is great, since it’s common knowledge that MOST big league developers release a game when it is only around 75-80% complete! Why do you think there are always patches? This of course, doesn’t hold true for console games (as patches simply aren’t possible). The 5-10% that Uplink needs is really just bug fixes, and MAYBE some game content that got scraped at the last minute (though this isn’t as important). Unfortunately, this is why people are growing frustrated with Introversion. Why are they more worried about the bonus CD when they should have a patch fixes bugs? Why is the talk of Uplink 2: TERMINAL when they promised a chat patch? Why is there talk of an online Uplink when I can’t even play over a LAN? These are the questions people ask when they see no bug fixes in sight.

Quote: from Jabberwocky on 8:53 am on Feb. 3, 2002[br]Where are these expectations written? Please show me.
You know, part of this system is, if you dont like the way a company is doing buisness, you dont do buisness with them and take it elsewhere.
Dont like the comapny? Buy a hacking game from someone else.
Wait, cant do that? Make your own.
Wait, cant do that? Um...


Again, you show a amazing ineptitude for subtlety or CONTRUCTIVE criticism. You want to know where those expectations are. On my credit card’s monthly statement, that’s where. The minute I (like the rest of you) became a PAYING CUSTOMER, Introversion entered into a contractual obligation with all of us. Don’t believe me? Have a look at your Penal Law book under contracts or fraud sometime, that ask “where” it’s written. Again, I’m NOT saying they were fraudulent with the game. I also don’t think anyone is running to get there $25 dollars back. It’s the principle. There ARE certain expectations of a PC game company (no matter what the size). Introversion knows it, and so do the gamers, otherwise this thread would never exist and we never would have had the v1.1 patch!!

Quote: from Icepick on 11:39 am on Feb. 3, 2002[br]I was trying to stay out of this thread, but its no use, i cant do it.
Its like Jabberwocky says, if you dont like it, dont play it, its hardly like you spent your entire lifes savings on the game. If you wanna bitch about a game not getting patched, why dont you go and bitch at a big multimillion dollar company that has the man power to produce patches quickly and still doesnt do it.
Introversion is a small, 4 man company, with alot to do, and you dont make their job easier by ranting about it.


This is just to reiterate my point, but a company is a company, whether they’re 4 guys or 400. I don’t think we’re “bitching,” but you are right Icepick, ranting does NOT make their jobs easier. Unfortunately, as you’re post (as well as MANY others) seems to suggest people here seem to feel attached to “the guys,” or feel sorry for them because they are a “4-man” company. Get it straight, Introversion is a COMPANY. I don’t care if one of them is having trouble with his math homework, or one has a cold, or one is having women problems, or one is whatever!! I DON’T CARE!! All I care about is them taking care of their game and the community they created. And before the fanboys unleash a firestorm of flames because I don’t have sympathy for Introversion, chew on this: if you buy a game from a company, do YOU care if the entire dev. team got drunk on Friday after work and a patch gets set back because of it, or if key personnel are on vacation or out sick or whatever? Probably not, so why should Introversion be any different? I should state that it is NOT my intention to attack Introversion, but instead to offer other ways of looking at the issues brought up in this thread.

Quote: from ditoa on 9:17 pm on Feb. 3, 2002[br]you have a valid point about retail software and patches however you are talking about games that are made by multi-million dollar companies like ID Software and can employ hundreds if not thousands of staff to just program the game and patches, and have a totally different team working on addons and bonus disk's.


Sorry, but this is TOTALLY incorrect!! It’s actually laughable :) I mean REALLY, how many games do ANY of us own that had “hundreds if not thousands” of staff working on a game? If you DO, your instruction manual must be hundreds of pages long, and that’s JUST for the credits!! Let’s try it, what do you say? I have in front of me the manual for “Outcast,” one of the biggest 3D games you can find in terms of content. Hmm, a total of 54 programmers, but lets break it down a bit. There are 3 kinds of departments, Engine Programming, Game Programming, and Graphic Department. Let’s see within Engine you got a guy for Landscape engine, one for animation engine, polygon engine, etc. Hmm, I could go on but you can ALL test this on your own. The simple truth is this; Uplink is NOT a marvel of modern computer programming. It’s GREAT that Introversion pulled off a game this polished with a four man staff, but don’t let the adulation go too far. This is NO Baldur’s Gate, Diablo, C&C, or Quake!! At a guess, if Introversion had a staff of ten they would probably be OVER staffed with regards to addons and patches.

Quote: from Jabberwocky on 8:23 am on Feb. 4, 2002[br]You have two approaches-
You code 5-6 different patches and release them one at a time. This means that for each patch you make from then on, you have to make one that patches from 1.0, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3... so on. Which is a major pain in the ass.
So there's a real reason to, if you have a bunch of ideas, you put them in at once.
And yeah, you are being a dick. In general, when someone is working on something, screaming will do one or two things-
1. Make them wonder why they're making software for whiny assholes.
2. Make them stop caring about you and work slower.
Shouting "FASTER!" wont do jack shit. Offer construtive stuff only.
CGI, have you coded? Have you worked with a team on a major piece of software?
There's a reason they arent calling you for advice, you know...


Ah, once again Jabberwocky drops in with another nugget of brilliance!! ROFLMAO!!! First, it is BETTER to release small version patches (ie. v1.2, 1.3, etc.) than it go right to v2.0. This is TRUE for two reasons. First, it shows your customers that you’re actually working on the issues they have brought up. Second and more importantly, it allows you to fix bugs that come from the new patch (as there ALWAYS are). This allows you to go BACK and fix it, since it was a small patch and you have a good idea as to the code you’re looking for (since you just added it). Now use your example of the “one big patch.” If something goes wrong in the patch, you now have MANY more lines of code to look through since the patch is so big, which then leads to even more delays and frustration for fans who now DESPERATELY waiting for a patch to the patch!!

The only valid you made is that posting flames to Introversions for poor programming (which I’m NOT saying it does) will only make matters worse. And again, must you feel the need to ask whether others have coded or worked for a major company. What does that prove? Do YOU enjoy that I feel compelled to ask YOU whether you’ve even graduate junior high school? Apologies, but you have the worst spelling I’ve ever seen; shame on you!! Doesn’t feel good being does it?

Quote: from Arsentek on 8:43 am on Feb. 4, 2002[br]You know for all the people that want a patch I have one simple solution. All you have to do is fix it yourself. Ohh. That's right you can't. You don't have the advanced knowledge that it takes to do code the way these guys are doing.


You and Jabberwocky MUST be friends :) I’m sorry but “advanced” knowledge? Please, don’t make it sound like they figured out the meaning of life or found the cure for cancer or something!! More experienced maybe, but that’s it. And as far as patching it myself, I wouldn’t mind taking a shot at it; I just didn’t realize the game was open source. LOL. If it is lemme know…

In closing I’d just like to say I think the posts by Slayer have been the most constructive for this thread. He’s been very civil and produced SOLID criticism. Well, that was my 2 cents. Let the firestorm of flames…BEGIN!!! :)
I Killied Laura Palmer :)
An (unrecognised) Uplink Internal Error has occured
An Uplink Assertion Failure has occured...Your system is now FUBAR!
Slayer_uplink
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Postby Slayer_uplink » Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:19 pm

Quote: from Jabberwocky on 12:41 pm on Feb. 4, 2002[br]There's a problem with your examples-

You do not suffer bodily harm when the game crashes. This is not a piece of saftey equipment or a piece of food. It is a piece of code.


Simply because those were the only examples I could think of. ANY example in which something fails to work, but requires more expertise to create than the average human has, works as an example.

It would work just as well if the car just kept cutting out every mile, or if the dish turned out to have no nutritional value. The point is, we don't live in a world where you need knowledge of a subject to know when there is a problem with it. The examples stand.
"My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for."
Extract from The Mentor's manifesto.
Icepick
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Postby Icepick » Tue Feb 05, 2002 1:25 pm

Though i didnt have time to read all of that, i did see some valid points there, and i would like to make a recommendation.
This thread is accomplishing nothing. We have established that at least one more patch fixing some bugs should have been out by now, and i agree, and we have also established that Introversions work force is limited.
I think this thread should be left to die, it is pretty pointless as we could sit here arguing about it till the end of time and still accomplish nothing. Its all a matter of patience really. I know it has been a long time coming, but when it does come, it will be worth it.
So... be patient, and for the love of god let this thread die.
GhostWhoWalks
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Postby GhostWhoWalks » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:09 am

Well it's been nearly 2 weeks since anyone posted to this thread and still nothing from "the boys." I would have liked to let this thread die, but after two weeks the ONLY updates we're getting are about the latest game review? Enough already, we all know this is a cool game. No need to beat the fact to death with more game reviews (since they're all starting to sound the same)!! Gimme a SOLID update! You know, like one that says the bug fix is ready...DOWNLOAD here. I hope we get something  special for all this waiting...
I Killied Laura Palmer :)
An (unrecognised) Uplink Internal Error has occured
An Uplink Assertion Failure has occured...Your system is now FUBAR!
Steven77uk
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Postby Steven77uk » Thu Feb 14, 2002 12:56 pm

(Edited by Steven77uk at 10:59 pm on Feb. 13, 2002)
Slayer_uplink
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Postby Slayer_uplink » Thu Feb 14, 2002 1:09 pm

GWW, we already GOT a reply on this from Chris... pretty much a direct reply to this thread, actually.

Go to the news page, and read the news from 6th February.

For what it's worth I would like some sort of possible date, or percent complete, or SOMETHING... But I'm happy to wait for a while knowing that Chris HAS read the thread, and told us something.
"My crime is that of judging people by what they say and think, not what they look like. My crime is that of outsmarting you, something that you will never forgive me for."
Extract from The Mentor's manifesto.
ekeane
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Postby ekeane » Tue Mar 05, 2002 11:21 am

The patch will come out when it is out, poeple should chill out and play the game, it works fine on my computer, sure there are a few bugs but so what it is still a kickass game.

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