Broken AI kills the game for me.

Post your ideas on where the future evolution of Multiwinia should lead

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco

St!gar
level1
level1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:02 pm

Broken AI kills the game for me.

Postby St!gar » Tue Oct 14, 2008 3:54 pm

Hi. I'd like to start by saying that Multiwinia has the honor of being the first RTS in a long, long time that I've actually played. That is; I've tried several games, bought some, and downloaded the odd demo. I've always thought of myself as more of a a RTS -fan than a fan of any other genre out there. Lastly, however, the experience has gone completely stale, at least for me. No matter how excellent the visuals are, no matter how "revolutionary" the gameplay, I've never been able keep up my interest long enough to play out an entire match. This means large titles like Company of Heroes, Supreme Commander, Universe at War, hell, even World in Conflict, despite it being very simmilar to Multiwinia in many ways. I think I've overdosed on the genre, to be honest. For several years now, I've given more and more up on them. I find I'm no longer able to bother dedicating all the time and concentration it takes to play a full match, and rather go play Unreal Tournament, Dynasty Warriors or QuakeWars in stead. :(

Long story short; Multiwinia has actually turned out to be the one game I have played the most, lately. The fast-paced gameplay, the spectacle, the action - it's almost perfect. I've found I mostly stick to Domination, King of the Hill and the odd Capture the Statue. I found myself not really liking Blitzkrieg and Rocket Riot all that much, for several reasons. Possibly, amongst other things, the whole thing with the fixed 40 (+ -) -man reinforcements and the way Rocket Riot usually has you fighting small skirmishes rather than the big, chaotic battles I learned to love in other modes, and the way Blitzkrieg doesn't seem to be my "thing", really, also, like in Rocket Riot, because the AI's poor at it. And that brings me to my point.

The AI in Multiwinia is, undoubtedly, very, very good. However, it does seem to have some problems; and those problems seems to be partly because of them...

a) -Perhaps not being as active as maybe they ought to, and:

b) -Some wierd pathfinding at times.

This doesn't seem like such big issues, but in actuality, I've often found them to spell their doom. In that one Blitzkrieg map where there's only one single contested flag in the middle of two choke-points - the first map in the list, I mean to remember - they have absolutely no chance. Also, is it only me, or does the AI completely neglect the use of formations in Blitzkrieg and Rocket Riot? :? This is really a shame. It's not that I particularely mind playing against other people, it's just that I, well, sometimes prefer not to. Besides, in Multiwinia where AI-controlled opponents like Evilinians and Futurewinians frequently appear in a match, isn't the level of the game's computer AI vital for them to even have a point in being there?

Anyways; like I said, the AI (or at times, the lack thereof), is the one real thing that has kept me from enjoying the game to its fullest. And it's a fucking shame, even though I have to admit that the AI in Multiwinia is still probably one of the best I've seen recently. That doesn't stop it, though, from actually partly "break" several game-modes; at least for me.
Last edited by St!gar on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
bert_the_turtle
level5
level5
Posts: 4796
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:11 pm
Location: Cologne
Contact:

Postby bert_the_turtle » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:34 pm

I think the reason the AI doesn't seem to like formations in those modes is the lack of units. Only when it has a crowd, it will put them into formation mode. Easy fix: increase the number of units you receive in each reinforcement wave, and/or get more frequent reinforcements in the advanced options. This should modify gameplay to be more of your liking, although I have to say that Blitzkrieg and RR are probably meant to be played with less units.

I'd try concentrating on three and four player maps. In duels, no matter how good the AI gets, it will always be predictable and fall for the same tricks. Once you know them, it gets boring. With more teams on the board, you have more decisions to make, especially in CTS and KOTH.
St!gar
level1
level1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby St!gar » Wed Oct 15, 2008 6:56 pm

Thanks for the reply. Good point about the AI and formations, by the way.

That said; my problem with the AI has got very little to do with predictability, I think. Like I said, the AI was pushed back completely without a chance on the very first tries on the Blitzkrieg map(s) I mensioned. Hard, Easy, everything.

I think it's problem in that regard is simply that it's not really all that active in the beginning, leaving me to arrive at the central waypoints and establish a position there way before they do...
RabidZombie
level5
level5
Posts: 2413
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:09 pm

Postby RabidZombie » Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:01 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ-QSJmEgHU

You may have some completely legitimate complaints and suggestions, but for the title alone, I had to link to it.
St!gar
level1
level1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby St!gar » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:12 pm

Just came back from a Blitzkrieg match against Hard AI on Confrontation Point. One of the bugs I've mentioned struck the poor AI like never before this time.

Throughout the match, the AI team's two Armours for some reason insisted on spending all their time huddling up real close to one another near their spawngate-thingy. I don't know what they were doing up there, or why the AI never sendt them anywhere. I'm guessing they were somehow blocking one another from moving anywhere else, or maybe they were somehow hoping to move up the cliffside leading to the gate for some reason, or something; I don't know. The AI would as far as I could tell load them up with Multiwinians and everything, but the Armours would, like I said, not go anywhere. Whenever I took the two armours out with Airstrikes, the new armours that spawned would just do the whole thing over again. Broken. :cry:

That said; it would happen, on occation, that a solitary Armour would manage to move on my flag(s) and do what they were supposed to. I don't know the circumstances around this, but I think it either happened randomly, or it only happened when the other Armour had not spawned yet, thus not letting them get stuck at each other, or something of the sort.

Just to make it clear; the AI did never do anything else that was particularily stupid throughout the whole match. They'd take out my turrets with Airstrikes; the few times the Armours worked as intended, they'd strike at seemingly logical locations - once, they even managed to recapture the middle point by sneaking a large group over while I was occupied elsewhere.

So, to just to sum it all up; the AI seems to be incredibly clever in this game - I can see the devs have really poured some effort into making the AI as competitive as possible. It actually manages to be truly challenging without cheating WHEN IT'S WORKING. However when it's not working; it completely fucks itself over.

I haven't played Multiwinia for a couple of weeks, even though I've had the chance. The bugged AI has sucked out a huge amount of my interest in playing the game; and it's really sad. I've just downloaded a demo of Dynasty Warriors 6, and I've played that more than I've played Multiwinia since I got it. :( I really hope the devs are reading this thread and perhaps are inspired to work on improving, or rather, fixing the Game's AI to the extent possible.

*EDIT*

I just remembered: the AI got one of those UFOs that collects souls. It started doing the exact same thing the Armours did, milling around the two Armours; all three vehicles just standing there together in one big clump.

Oh; and I figured I'd change the title to something slightly more grave... Also; is it only me, or does the thread not feel like it belongs in the "Future" -section at all? Could someone possibly move it to the general section, if it's not either too much trouble or in violation of some rules or something?
RabidZombie
level5
level5
Posts: 2413
Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:09 pm

Postby RabidZombie » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:30 pm

Play it online. :P

Also, as for these problems, try posting a bug report in the Windows Troubleshooting section.
St!gar
level1
level1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby St!gar » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:07 pm

Also, as for these problems, try posting a bug report in the Windows Troubleshooting section.



*Slaps head* Ugh. You know what; I actually didn't think of that. :oops: Now I feel stupid. Thanks!
User avatar
Johnis
level2
level2
Posts: 196
Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 12:26 pm
Location: GREECE
Contact:

Postby Johnis » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:59 am

the AI is very very good. I have tried also a few commercial strategy games. multiwinia AI is very very good.
AI also is used for practice, if you want to try the game and use some real strategies try it vs human's when you have practiced enough with CPU
St!gar
level1
level1
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2008 11:02 pm

Postby St!gar » Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:21 pm

It really is. Just too bad it seems bugged in certain vital areas.
Pinky
level2
level2
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed May 21, 2008 10:23 am
Location: Darwinia
Contact:

Postby Pinky » Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:47 pm

Actually, some of those problems stem from the problems with the game. The AI doesn't realise that getting his units to move there will inexplicably require them to travel to the spawn/control station/gun turret halfway in the opposite direction first.
User avatar
elexis
level5
level5
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:11 am
Location: Australia
Contact:

Postby elexis » Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:49 am

St!gar wrote:<Armour Issue>


Yeah, seen that one before. Basically it comes down to the fact that the armours can go through anything, but they don't know that multiwinians can't. In your case, the armour is sitting within the collision area of the trunk port, where multiwinians can't go. (To see this collision, move a bunch of multiwinians from one side of the trunk port to the other. Use Ctrl-Click to not use pathfinding. They should form a semi-circle around the trunk port.) The best way to replicate this is to play Dog Green Sector with AI attacking.

Return to “The Future”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests