[Suggestion] prison rape?

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max prisoner
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[Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby max prisoner » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:05 am

i know its a dark and touchy subject (no pun intended). but it happens quite a bit in prison. i think it is a good and realistic thing to add to the game.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby yuk » Sat Jul 23, 2016 10:42 am

max prisoner wrote:i know its a dark and touchy subject (no pun intended). but it happens quite a bit in prison. i think it is a good and realistic thing to add to the game.


Can you prove it happens quite a lot in prison or are you just going by movies and stereotypes?

Also what would that achieve? It's already hard enough to keep the safety need low and the danger level low.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby MFWIC » Tue Jul 26, 2016 4:15 am

If chris and friends want to inject more realism into this game they should maybe read this little gem of investigative journalism.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/201 ... tion-bauer
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby yuk » Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:25 am

That's some scary reality MFWIC!
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby stonecold » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:44 am

yuk wrote:
max prisoner wrote:i know its a dark and touchy subject (no pun intended). but it happens quite a bit in prison. i think it is a good and realistic thing to add to the game.


Can you prove it happens quite a lot in prison or are you just going by movies and stereotypes?

Also what would that achieve? It's already hard enough to keep the safety need low and the danger level low.


no one can "prove" it happens quite a bit in prison, every case isn't documented, even if they were...they are not public record...and getting every record in every prison in the u.s. or world would take a long time and require a lot of money....that's not going to ever be proven.

you could go to jail and find out yourself though :lol:
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby yuk » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:03 am

I'm not asking you to go digging deep into records, I am simply stating it's more of a movie trope than a real thing.

Of course it happens. It happens outside as well. And of course not every case is documented.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby stonecold » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:43 pm

you wanted us to "prove" it...records are the only way.

I can assure you, it does exist and it occurs every day hundreds of times a day.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby relix92 » Mon Sep 12, 2016 10:24 pm

Hello.

I read these prison rape letters back in 02 or 03.
They are quite graphic, and very real.

For those of you interested,
https://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_las ... n-rape.htm

Rapes in prison are a very common problem in the US, and they have been known to occur in jails as well.

There have been many campaigns within the United States to address this problem, but its complicated, to say the least.


I'm still waiting on Prison Architect to add this feature - but, we all know it will never happen..
:roll:
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby xander » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:11 pm

relix92 wrote:For those of you interested,
https://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_las ... n-rape.htm

Stormfront isn't really a credible source.

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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby relix92 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:33 am

xander wrote:
relix92 wrote:For those of you interested,
https://www.stormfront.org/truth_at_las ... n-rape.htm

Stormfront isn't really a credible source.

xander


Its not a very ethical source, but I do believe its fairly reliable enough to believe those letters are genuine.

Regardless, here are official statistics to calm your arrogance;
These are recent national statistics for reported prison sex offenses in the US.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5320

"Administrators of adult correctional facilities reported 8,763 allegations of sexual victimization in 2011, a statistically significant increase over the 8,404 allegations reported in 2010 and 7,855 in 2009. See Sexual Victimization Reported by Adult Correctional Authorities, 2009–11.
The number of allegations has risen since 2005, largely due to increases in prisons, where allegations increased from 4,791 allegations to 6,660 in 2011 (up 39%). See Survey of Sexual Violence in Adult Correctional Facilities, 2009–11 - Statistical Tables."
Last edited by relix92 on Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby xander » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:06 pm

relix92 wrote:--==<snip>==--

I did not claim that rapes do not happen in prison. What I said is that Stormfront is not a credible source. That's all.

As to statistics, I am aware of the statistics. Most reputable sources indicate that somewhere around 3-5% of prisoners in the US will be the victims of nonconsensual sexual activity (I'll cite the Wikipedia article on the topic, but note that it relies heavily on a BJS report that I have neither the time nor interest to read in detail). I'll note that your use of raw numbers (rather than rates) appears to be a disingenuous attempt to exaggerate the problem.

Even then, the raw numbers or rates don't tell us anything unless we have something to compare them to. Are incidence of sexual violence much more common in prison than outside of prison? What are the rates outside of prison? Most sources (I'll again link to Wikipedia, as its aggregation of sources seems more reliable than any single source that I can find with a two minute Google search) seem to indicate that something like 40% of female college students will be the victim of a sexual assault, maybe 20-25% of those being classified as rape. In comparison, the 3-5% rate (maybe as much as 20-25% in women's prisons, with a much higher rate of staff-on-prisoner assaults) seems within the norm. If you want to show that prison rape is such a huge, important problem, you should probably start by showing how it compares to non-prison rape.

Basically, while I agree that rape is a problem, I don't think that the actual incidence of rape are anything like what is depicted in popular culture. Furthermore, since the topic of this thread is about whether or not rape should be a part of the game, I can only respond with a question: what does it add to the game? what purpose, either narratively or in terms of gameplay, does it serve?

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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby relix92 » Fri Sep 16, 2016 4:19 am

xander wrote:I'll note that your use of raw numbers (rather than rates) appears to be a disingenuous attempt to exaggerate the problem.


I seriously thought I misunderstood that when I first read it.

There is absolutely nothing disingenuous about my statements or their intent.

The quote that I posted was the first set of statistics listed on that page for which I gave the link;
Its specific, not "raw" - we aren't quoting a crappy news source, we're quoting the official federal website for these exact numbers.

:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow: :arrow:

xander wrote:Are incidence of sexual violence much more common in prison than outside of prison? What are the rates outside of prison?

If you want to show that prison rape is such a huge, important problem, you should probably start by showing how it compares to non-prison rape.


What does this have to do with me reporting data for sex crimes in US prisons?
My entire stance in this thread was to post sources regarding the prevalence of prison rape - because it does happen often.

Your questions - they serve zero purpose here.

The data that is collected, which I posted above - is under-reported, not the opposite.
Whether the correlation between annually reported prison rapes in contrast to annually reported citizen rapes matters or not - does not change or by any means effect the reality of those currently reported numbers.

By the way, those reported sex crimes in prison - the statistics are only getting bigger.

It is a problem.
And I wasn't attempting to advocate its solution - I do not work in humanitarian aid.


xander wrote:I don't think that the actual incidence of rape are anything like what is depicted in popular culture.



Tell me, how much do you know?
How familiar are you with the details that are generally reported by many victims of rape during a correctional stay?


xander wrote:Furthermore, since the topic of this thread is about whether or not rape should be a part of the game, I can only respond with a question: what does it add to the game? what purpose, either narratively or in terms of gameplay, does it serve?


I could think of a handful of things it could be effective for - but first, lets address the basic aspects:

It would add to realism, and it would certainly add a slightly-controversial but unquestionable place in the game.
Its got a fair bit of potential to add thrill - and lets not forget that it would be funny to some people.

Now - if you're interested in what I would do if I was a developer who was given the job of making this feature more functional...

The prisoner that "owns" the other inmate would be more suppressed if he has a prison bitch.
Like, all the time. Hes always chill..

The prisoner who is the bitch will always be unhappy, and if you don't solve it (maybe sending the prisoner in charge to solitary for a certain time removes the prison bitch as his slave?) within a timely manner, he or she will eventually snap and murder another inmate - or commit suicide, if we also add this feature.

Prison bitches can and will hold weapons and contraband for the prisoner that owns them, and they will usually follow them around everywhere during freetime, lunch and showers.

Maybe some of them even accept being prison bitches - like, the algorithm randomly selects some inmates that will not go crazy being enslaved.

See?
I came up with that bullshit in like 5 minutes - give me an hour and I would probably make a list.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby xander » Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:06 pm

relix92 wrote:The quote that I posted was the first set of statistics listed on that page for which I gave the link;
Its specific, not "raw" - we aren't quoting a crappy news source, we're quoting the official federal website for these exact numbers.

There is a difference between raw numbers and rates. 6-8,000 allegations of sexual victimization sounds like a very large number. The rate of 3-5% gives a better idea of how prevalent a problem is. The use of raw numbers (rather than rates) is a common ploy for exaggerating the nature of a problem. If you are truly ignorant of this fact, I apologize for accusing you of being disingenuous. That said, if you want to sound *really* scary, note that there are more than 2 million prisoners in the US---3% of that is 60,000 (an order of magnitude greater than the numbers you report).

How does that compare to the population outside of prison? Hard to say. Are all of those allegations true? Again, hard to say. Are there other incidences of sexual violence that are not being reported? Very likely, but, again, hard to say.

relix92 wrote:
xander wrote:I don't think that the actual incidence of rape are anything like what is depicted in popular culture.

Tell me, how much do you know?
How familiar are you with the details that are generally reported by many victims of rape during a correctional stay?

Well, popular culture seems to indicate that if you go to prison, you are either going to be someone's "bitch" and have to submit to non-consensual sex, or you are going to make someone else your "bitch" and require the same. The actual statistics (i.e. those from the BJS report that you cite, rather than the anecdotes from Stormfront) indicate that (1) the rates of sexual violence are much lower than the near-100% portrayed in popular culture, (2) such violence is just as likely to be committed by a guard or other prison employee, and (3) it is much worse for women than men.

relix92 wrote:It would add to realism, and it would certainly add a slightly-controversial but unquestionable place in the game.

Is that always a worthwhile goal? Prison Architect clearly doesn't seek to be overly realistic, what with its cartoonish depictions of prisoners, overactive gopher prisoners, magic insta-healing medics, and staff who work 24/7 (with breaks!). That something should be included because it "adds realism" is a losing argument.

relix92 wrote:Its got a fair bit of potential to add thrill - and lets not forget that it would be funny to some people.

You want to pander to the audience that gets off on the pain and suffering of others? Really? That's your next argument? That is seriously what you are suggesting?

relix92 wrote:Now - if you're interested in what I would do if I was a developer who was given the job of making this feature more functional...
--==<snip>==--

None of that requires the inclusion of rape into the game. All of those mechanics could exist without it. So, other than being edgy and provocative, what does rape add to the game?

xander

[EDIT to fix a typo]
Last edited by xander on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby relix92 » Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:52 pm

Xander - I think you did a wonderful job at illustrating how disingenuous you yourself seem to be.

Your recent comments, again, do nothing to further the conversation intellectually.
You are clearly reaching for anything to fuel your stance against me, so much so that I do not care to reply to a single word of it.

I feel absolutely comfortable with allowing the people of the internet to read what is posted above - and allowing them to decide what is what.
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Re: [Suggestion] prison rape?

Postby xander » Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:50 pm

relix92 wrote:Xander - I think you did a wonderful job at illustrating how disingenuous you yourself seem to be.

In what way?

relix92 wrote:Your recent comments, again, do nothing to further the conversation intellectually.
You are clearly reaching for anything to fuel your stance against me, so much so that I do not care to reply to a single word of it.

If you really think so little of me and/or what I've written, why bother replying at all?

xander

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