[a35 issue] gang locking cells

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klikko
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[a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby klikko » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:20 am

So, I've run into an issue in the new update. After a gang member claimed a cell before I'd installed the toilet or utilities, I was unable to do so or delete the cell. I don't think it's a bug, cause I seem to remember it being mentioned in the youtube video. It is an issue though.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby kreft010 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:25 am

Hope this gets addressed.
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Pogmothoin
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby Pogmothoin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:47 pm

Not a bug,

You should build everything in the cell before zoning it as a cell as a standard practice. Now there is a reason why you have to do that. Have you tried moving the prisoner to another cell?
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby blackdwarf » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:17 pm

This is part of a related set of issues with cells.

1. Cells that don't meet cell requirements will still be occupied by prisoners until/unless the player manually assigns a different cell, or the prisoner is forced to leave by a game event.

2. Objects without needed power (e.g., TV) still contribute to cell rating.

3, Objects without needed water (e.g., shower) still contribute to cell rating.

For the first one, either it should be impossible for a prisoner to occupy such a cell, or there should be a hefty fine for "housing prisoners in deplorable conditions" (and the AI should never put a prisoner in such a cell).

For the latter two, the cell quality should not include non-functional objects. Or maybe there should be a negative impact on cell quality for any non-functional item, even if the item does not normally contribute to cell quality. This could include any damaged item.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby Pogmothoin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:23 pm

I don't think it's anything to do with cell grading, in fact I'm not even sure if cell grading even effects gang members.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby 5hifty » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:58 pm

Agreed. Ive was adding some upgrade to my prison and notice that I couldn't place a radio is a couple of cells. Quickly traced it to the gangs locking rooms. Couldn't help thinking 'Oh really, you dont want a new TV and radio? Fine...' heh. While I acknowledge the reason for not being able to unzone the public rooms that gangs can claim, it seems a bit strange not being able to architecture my prison simple because a prisoner says no - isn't that why I employ guards and train them to use tazers? I think for this to be a feature, they need to work on the 'identifying who owns which cell' and 'allocating and/or moving prisoners to a cell' mechanics.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby Lazarus52980 » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:50 pm

Pogmothoin wrote:Not a bug,

You should build everything in the cell before zoning it as a cell as a standard practice. Now there is a reason why you have to do that. Have you tried moving the prisoner to another cell?


I'm sorry Pogmothoin, but IMO you are wrong in this case. This is a bug because it was an unintended consequence. The addition of the code to not allow placement of objects in gang territory is in place because the developers wanted to show how much control gangs had when the took a yard or a common room. However there appears to be no intent to declare the cells that gang members are in to be "gang territory" since you can just move them out of one cell and into another without having to fight them for control of the area. Thus, this is a part that was just not considered/tested in the last build and should be fixed as a bug, not declared as a "feature".
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby Pogmothoin » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:11 pm

Well it isn't a bug, since the dev's did design it that way, and I can see why. However I do agree that it is very restrictive, and unrealistic. Having not tested it myself is why I asked if prisoners can still be moved to another cell or not. If they can't be allocated another cell then something does need to change. Also remember that there is still more gang work to come, which only some has been hinted at, we don't know what the full system is going to be like, or if it will alter this problem.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby blackdwarf » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:18 am

Well it isn't a bug, since the dev's did design it that way, and I can see why.


I really have a hard time with this concept. When you say that "the devs did design it that way," I can only think of two possible meanings.
Either
1. You have inside information of the actual intent of the devs. You know that they really wanted to have the game function exactly the way it does (in this area, at least). If you do have this sort of knowledge, please do share your source.
Or,
2. You mean that PA works as it does, and since the devs designed it, how it works must be how they designed it to work. In this meaning, what could possibly qualify as a bug?

I don't know what kind of software design and development experience you have, but I know first hand that making changes to a large, complex software design/implementation can very easily lead to unintended consequences. A former co-worker of mine once said that a big software system is like a big blob of jello -- you push it here, and it wiggles over there.
In a game like PA, it's virtually impossible to find all of the unintended consequences of a change. In fact, we alpha purchasers are a significant part of the testing process because thoroughly testing this kind of game is so damn difficult.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby Pogmothoin » Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:52 am

blackdwarf wrote:
please do share your source.


PA alpha 35 video, shows quite clearly that gang members are supposed to control their cells as their territory, since they are often used as meeting places. It also is said that there is supposed to be restrictions on what you can and can't do in gang controlled area's (including adding/removing items). The PA video's are the only public source of dev's intent, along with the complete patch notes and occasional tweet, but Mantis also sheds some light on specific intentions. The combined sources give a lot of detail on what is being developed and what has been done.

Yes there are unintended consequences, of which I think this is one. But possibly not, because Chris clearly states that gangs will fuck your prison up, and to only play with gangs if you want a real challenge, gangs are not for new players. This could be thoroughly intended as another problem to deal with. And it is only a problem, it's not game breaking, you can overcome it. My main objection to this problem is that it's unrealistic, it paints the guards as having no control over who is in what cell or where, and what items they can or can't have just because they are in a gang. As I stated before I don't think Chris intended that items could only be removed from gang area's and not added, when it should realistically be vice versa, or both, but that remains to be seen.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby xProlithium » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:38 pm

I'd like to add my bit of logic to that. If I as the warden have the authority to remove you (the gang member) from that cell. I should then have the authority to stick a chair, a radio, a shower head, or even a fridge in your cell.

"Oh you have control over your cell? Permanent Solitary. Have a nice day."

xD
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby klikko » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:23 pm

I've fixed it by temporarily placing the prisoner in a different group, fx. protected, then fixing the cell and reverting him afterwards. It is counter-intuitive that it works this way, as new players might not even realize this sort of complicated fix.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby rabid squirrel » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:27 am

If it doesn't have a toilet it has a big red warning sign that the room is not functioning and there shouldn't be prisoners in it. Put it in the bug tracker.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby 5hifty » Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:56 am

You can just click on the prisoner and then click on a different cell and they will be transfered to it. It's a pain the the arse when you are doing major redesigns and you have to shuffle prisoners around just so you can place items. I get their being a restriction on redesigning gang controlled areas like the yard, but controlling their cells seems a bit much - I have 50 or so gang members in a 600 prison - adding a tv to each cell was a monster pain. Had to stop every 3 or 4 cells and bugger around moving someone. Made a 30 secon effort take 10 minutes or so.
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Re: [a35 issue] gang locking cells

Postby ble210 » Mon Aug 03, 2015 6:04 am

This most definitely is a bug. Cells should be able to be modified, no matter if a gang member occupies it or not.

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