No benefits for Minimum Security ?

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Inge Jones
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Inge Jones » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:06 pm

Jinxed wrote:Min-sec, by definition, is very hard to achieve for prisoner without a few friends, good lawyer and a few bucks invested in right pocket.


Ok but don't these type of people have something better to do than dig tunnels? Like write their memoirs or pay someone to sneak them out in a garbage truck?
Jinxed
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Jinxed » Sat Oct 04, 2014 7:54 pm

Suggest another mechanics of escaping in different thread then.
Inge Jones
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Inge Jones » Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:40 pm

No, they should just tunnel *less* than the others, given the same access to tools, and the same amount of time unsupervised in their cells, the min security prisoners should tunnel *less*, not more.
Jinxed
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Jinxed » Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:47 pm

If you got something to suggest - then stop saying who should do what and suggest already.
Currently you are just chewing fat here with me with no actual efficient outcome.

Making them dig less won't suffice, since crippling the frequency of digging will cripple the digging chance for all security categories.
Max-sec digs rarely as it is now.
ble210
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby ble210 » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:11 pm

Jinxed wrote:The rationale for min-sec most likely to be clever is this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru12YzfJ_PA


Mr Bigs is not murdering the people around. He is just pushing the buttons.
Max-sec are the buttons, they are the guys who actually do the killing and extorting.

Min-sec, by definition, is very hard to achieve for prisoner without a few friends, good lawyer and a few bucks invested in right pocket.


I don't think that is at all right. The security rating of prisoners in PA (and often in real life) are based on the nature of offenses, not of on whether they are "criminal masterminds" or some other cliche.
Jinxed
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Jinxed » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:23 am

That was not cliche, but slight exaggeration.

Here is what wikipedia got to tell about min-sec:
On the other end are "minimum security" prisons which are most often used to house those for whom more stringent security is deemed unnecessary. For example, while white-collar crime rarely results in incarceration, when it does offenders are almost always sent to minimum-security prisons due to cultural perceptions of wealthier, more educated people as being less threatening. Lower-security prisons are often designed with less restrictive features, confining prisoners at night in smaller locked dormitories or even cottage or cabin-like housing while permitting them freer movement around the grounds to work or activities during the day. Some countries (such as Britain) also have "open" prisons where prisoners are allowed home-leave or part-time employment outside of the prison. Suomenlinna Island facility in Finland is an example of one such "open" correctional facility. The prison has been open since 1971 and, as of September 2013, the facility's 95 male prisoners leave the prison grounds on a daily basis to work in the corresponding township or commute to the mainland for either work or study. Prisoners can rent flat-screen televisions, sound systems, and mini-refrigerators with the prison-labor wages that they can earn—wages range between 4.10 and 7.3 Euros per hour (US$5.30 to $9.50). With electronic monitoring, prisoners are also allowed to visit their families in Helsinki and eat together with the prison staff. Prisoners in Scandinavian facilities are permitted to wear their own clothes.


Min sec guys ain't cuddly bunnies to be expected to behave like ones.
Those are white-collars mostly and some extremelly lucky guys among them.
They expected to be put in appropriate min-sec facility and instead they are in brewing pot of violence with player refusing to satisfy their freedom need good enough.
What else do you expect from them?

Regarding security rating being based on the nature of offences - incorrect.
Security rating is estimate evaluation of level of violence and disorder this prisoner able to bring in your facility.

The solution is, however, rather simple on this one - deal with it.
If it is in your belief that some prisoners are behaving inappropriate for their current security rating - assign them to higher rating.
Otherwise - satisfy their needs. With proper planning a facility running solely on min-sec prisoners may be much more profitable (and boring) than any other facility.
ble210
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby ble210 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:38 am

Jinxed wrote:That was not cliche, but slight exaggeration.

Here is what wikipedia got to tell about min-sec:
On the other end are "minimum security" prisons which are most often used to house those for whom more stringent security is deemed unnecessary. For example, while white-collar crime rarely results in incarceration, when it does offenders are almost always sent to minimum-security prisons due to cultural perceptions of wealthier, more educated people as being less threatening. Lower-security prisons are often designed with less restrictive features, confining prisoners at night in smaller locked dormitories or even cottage or cabin-like housing while permitting them freer movement around the grounds to work or activities during the day. Some countries (such as Britain) also have "open" prisons where prisoners are allowed home-leave or part-time employment outside of the prison. Suomenlinna Island facility in Finland is an example of one such "open" correctional facility. The prison has been open since 1971 and, as of September 2013, the facility's 95 male prisoners leave the prison grounds on a daily basis to work in the corresponding township or commute to the mainland for either work or study. Prisoners can rent flat-screen televisions, sound systems, and mini-refrigerators with the prison-labor wages that they can earn—wages range between 4.10 and 7.3 Euros per hour (US$5.30 to $9.50). With electronic monitoring, prisoners are also allowed to visit their families in Helsinki and eat together with the prison staff. Prisoners in Scandinavian facilities are permitted to wear their own clothes.


Min sec guys ain't cuddly bunnies to be expected to behave like ones.
Those are white-collars mostly and some extremelly lucky guys among them.
They expected to be put in appropriate min-sec facility and instead they are in brewing pot of violence with player refusing to satisfy their freedom need good enough.
What else do you expect from them?

Regarding security rating being based on the nature of offences - incorrect.
Security rating is estimate evaluation of level of violence and disorder this prisoner able to bring in your facility.

The solution is, however, rather simple on this one - deal with it.
If it is in your belief that some prisoners are behaving inappropriate for their current security rating - assign them to higher rating.
Otherwise - satisfy their needs. With proper planning a facility running solely on min-sec prisoners may be much more profitable (and boring) than any other facility.


I don't get what you are saying- first you go through examples of extremely lenient min-sec security prisons, and then you say that min-sec prisoners aren't "cuddly bunnies" and we shouldn't expect them to not be violent? I don't follow you.

In terms of security rating being based on the nature of the offenses- generally, what I said is correct. Sure, it is a generalization, but that is what you need in a video game. A person who is guilty of a misdemeanor will spend time not in prison, but in jail. A person guilty of nonviolent felonies are, as your examples show, more likely to spend their sentences in less restrictive environments. Of course there are political considerations (wealth and stature of the person), but this is a video game, and things have to be simplified.

Finally, lets just look at common sense- why would a person who has a short sentence try to escape prison when doing so would result in a far longer sentence if they are caught? And if they escape, they aren't going to be able to live a normal life while on the run. The incentive is awfully low for them, and the risks high. From a cost-benefit analysis, escape attempts for min-sec prisoners doesn't make much sense.
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Jinxed » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:08 am

ble210 wrote:
Jinxed wrote:That was not cliche, but slight exaggeration.

Here is what wikipedia got to tell about min-sec:
On the other end are "minimum security" prisons which are most often used to house those for whom more stringent security is deemed unnecessary. For example, while white-collar crime rarely results in incarceration, when it does offenders are almost always sent to minimum-security prisons due to cultural perceptions of wealthier, more educated people as being less threatening. Lower-security prisons are often designed with less restrictive features, confining prisoners at night in smaller locked dormitories or even cottage or cabin-like housing while permitting them freer movement around the grounds to work or activities during the day. Some countries (such as Britain) also have "open" prisons where prisoners are allowed home-leave or part-time employment outside of the prison. Suomenlinna Island facility in Finland is an example of one such "open" correctional facility. The prison has been open since 1971 and, as of September 2013, the facility's 95 male prisoners leave the prison grounds on a daily basis to work in the corresponding township or commute to the mainland for either work or study. Prisoners can rent flat-screen televisions, sound systems, and mini-refrigerators with the prison-labor wages that they can earn—wages range between 4.10 and 7.3 Euros per hour (US$5.30 to $9.50). With electronic monitoring, prisoners are also allowed to visit their families in Helsinki and eat together with the prison staff. Prisoners in Scandinavian facilities are permitted to wear their own clothes.


Min sec guys ain't cuddly bunnies to be expected to behave like ones.
Those are white-collars mostly and some extremelly lucky guys among them.
They expected to be put in appropriate min-sec facility and instead they are in brewing pot of violence with player refusing to satisfy their freedom need good enough.
What else do you expect from them?

Regarding security rating being based on the nature of offences - incorrect.
Security rating is estimate evaluation of level of violence and disorder this prisoner able to bring in your facility.

The solution is, however, rather simple on this one - deal with it.
If it is in your belief that some prisoners are behaving inappropriate for their current security rating - assign them to higher rating.
Otherwise - satisfy their needs. With proper planning a facility running solely on min-sec prisoners may be much more profitable (and boring) than any other facility.


I don't get what you are saying- first you go through examples of extremely lenient min-sec security prisons, and then you say that min-sec prisoners aren't "cuddly bunnies" and we shouldn't expect them to not be violent? I don't follow you.

In terms of security rating being based on the nature of the offenses- generally, what I said is correct. Sure, it is a generalization, but that is what you need in a video game. A person who is guilty of a misdemeanor will spend time not in prison, but in jail. A person guilty of nonviolent felonies are, as your examples show, more likely to spend their sentences in less restrictive environments. Of course there are political considerations (wealth and stature of the person), but this is a video game, and things have to be simplified.

Finally, lets just look at common sense- why would a person who has a short sentence try to escape prison when doing so would result in a far longer sentence if they are caught? And if they escape, they aren't going to be able to live a normal life while on the run. The incentive is awfully low for them, and the risks high. From a cost-benefit analysis, escape attempts for min-sec prisoners doesn't make much sense.


Because they are afraid for their life or extremelly frustrated over the conditions they are put it.
In my country there is a mandatory one-year service in army for males from 18 to 27 years old. On the event if soldier goes AWOL for less than 3 days it is usually settled peacefully among the officer and soldier.
If this AWOL takes more than 3 days then it is a whole-scaled desertion of duty, which will result in 3 years of incarnation and serving the whole year in army over again.

Yet some people are still trying to turn the corner for various reasons, including those that I mentioned before.
Personally, during my service in army, I knew two soldiers who decided to make a run for it.
One was considred a snitch among comrades and was simply afraid of waking up with his throad slit open and the second one just was not happy of the idea serving in army.

Of course there are social considerations (peer pressure, counceling), but this is a video game, and things have to be simplified.

The point about cuddly bunnies is - do not expect your min-sec fellas to be absolutely cool about their needs being not satisfied.
They start digging the tunnels only if those two conditions are met - prisoner have the hidden "Clever" trait and his "Freedom" need is not satisfied.
If prisoner with those conditions is in the cell next to another prisoner with same two problems - they will cooperate in their escape attempt.

Solution remains - deal with it or suggest something comprehensive already.
ble210
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby ble210 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:25 am

I hear what you are saying, but I am guessing that if you were to examine the statistics on prisoner escapes, you would be far more likely to see escape attempts made by prisoners with longer sentences. Put another way, I would strongly suspect that there is a positive correlation between sentence length and efforts made to escape. But with the current mechanics, the game gets it backwards; min sec prisoners are more likely to seek to escape (as they are more likely to have the clever trait).

My solution would simply to be to revise the current system. I think that prisoners with longer stays ought to be more likely to have the hidden trait that makes them seek escape. If you think that min sec prisoners are more likely to be sophisticated thinkers (for lack of a better term), then maybe the clever trait should instead make it that so their tunnels are less likely to be discovered (they are more careful in making their cells appear undisturbed, or are quieter when digging, for example), while an additional, new trait controls likelihood of attempting escape in the first place.
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby 5hifty » Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:00 am

Seriously Jinxed, great attitude....

Given a equal prison and equal treatment, there is no logical reason that Min Sec prisoners should be more prone to escape then higher security rating system. Likelihood of trying to escape should scale along with rate of trait likelihood, and also somehow linked to sentence time - so that prisoners serving longer sentences are the ones that would be more likely to escape. It makes no sense to have prisoners who are in on a 6 month charge of insider trading to be hard at work tunneling out of prison in droves, while the Max Sec lifers are content to sit in there cells and await their 80 year sentence to expire.
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Spike88 » Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:16 am

5hifty wrote:Seriously Jinxed, great attitude....

Given a equal prison and equal treatment, there is no logical reason that Min Sec prisoners should be more prone to escape then higher security rating system. Likelihood of trying to escape should scale along with rate of trait likelihood, and also somehow linked to sentence time - so that prisoners serving longer sentences are the ones that would be more likely to escape. It makes no sense to have prisoners who are in on a 6 month charge of insider trading to be hard at work tunneling out of prison in droves, while the Max Sec lifers are content to sit in there cells and await their 80 year sentence to expire.


I agree. Low-Sec prisons are probably the only prisons you should be able to leave on over night and not have to worry about.

However, the clever trait should come into play when gangs re-introduced. You could have your gang bosses who were able to weasel their way into low-sec, running things via messengers from low-sec.
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby xPyr0x » Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:46 am

You can always get min sec guys and manually assign them to max for higher pay, and have them work.... You can put everything they need in a holding cell, and house like 30+ min dudes in there, with all the stuff they need besides food, and they won't tunnel out, and usually won't fight. Max sec on the other hand, will fight, a lot.
Inge Jones
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Inge Jones » Sun Oct 05, 2014 10:09 am

Jinxed wrote:If you got something to suggest - then stop saying who should do what and suggest already.
Currently you are just chewing fat here with me with no actual efficient outcome.

Making them dig less won't suffice, since crippling the frequency of digging will cripple the digging chance for all security categories.
Max-sec digs rarely as it is now.


Alright here is my suggestion already. Instead of having just ONE tunable variable that will affect all prisoner categories, how about we have one for each category so they can be tuned seperately? Then reducing tunnelling in low sec won't reduce it in high sec. There - I spat out my chewed fat :)
Jinxed
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby Jinxed » Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:02 pm

I suggest to separate this discussion from here and move it here:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=50530
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Re: No benefits for Minimum Security ?

Postby BGK » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:31 am

Keep in mind that min sec prisoners provide more income now, $75 from $50. Also max sec is $200 from $150.

min: $75 (used to be $50)
med: $100
max: $200 (used to be $150)

When you look that those numbers, I'd rather say that there is little reasons to open your prison to med sec.
For a prison with a limited crew and good workshop production, go for min sec.
For a prison with high income from federal grant but with high (and expensive) security measures, go for max.

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