[Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

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Sporegen
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[Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby Sporegen » Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:22 am

Currently, I find that armed guards aren't versatile enough. They can either fight with their fists, or use lethal force with their shotgun. There is no in between.
The AI also doesn't respond very well to shootouts.
I therefore suggest some new features:
disclaimer: I know the rules state one suggestion per thread, but seeing as all these suggestions are on the same subject. I will post them all here anyway. Also, some of these things might have already been suggested. Please don't whine about it. :roll:

Three fire modes: (these are toggled with the same button, and will make it change color.)
  • Hold Fire: Guards will only use their firearms as melee weapons, in case they are not armed with a baton. They may still try to intimidate prisoners by pointing their weapon at them. White
  • Non-Lethal: Guards will threaten misbehaving prisoners with their firearms, making them surrender. If the prisoner refuses to surrender, they will fire non-lethal ammunition (bean bags). Orange
  • Lethal: Guards will fire potentially lethal ammunition at misbehaving prisoners, after they refuse to surrender. Red

  • Low change of accidents whereby an Armed Guard accidentally shoots a prisoner while attempting to force surrender. (This will add more risk to having armed guards.)
  • Firearms can be used as melee weapons, although a little less effective than batons. There is very low chance the prisoner grabs the weapon during melee, this chance also depends on the prisoner's traits.
  • Research to arm Armed Guards with Batons. Eliminating the risk of prisoners grabbing a weapon during melee.
  • Armed Guards and prisoners take cover behind corners, ... during a shootout.
  • Half-height materials to take cover behind, such as sandbags and metal covers. This has to be researched.
  • Prisoners will get less and less suppressed by Armed Guards over time, up to a certain minimum depending on the prisoner's traits. The suppression effect will reset itself once an Armed Guard successfully uses a firearm on a prisoner.
  • Ability to shoot through non-solid objects, such as jail doors.
  • Firearms need ammunition, of which Armed Guards carry a limited amount. The Armoury needs ammo boxes, these contain a large amount of ammunition for all weapons. They are automatically bought, just like Bleach.
  • Ability to shoot manually, using the same mechanics as the Firefighter's hose. :twisted:
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xander
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby xander » Wed Aug 13, 2014 3:23 am

While I certainly wouldn't object if some or all of what you are suggesting is implemented, I personally just don't see the need. The primary emphasis of the game is on the design and running of a prison. If anyone is shooting, then you have already done something wrong. The rioting, bashing of heads, and discharge of firearms is like a little mini-game or cutscene to reinforce the idea that something, somewhere along the line, was done poorly. I'm okay with keeping it pretty simple and low-fi.

Also, as an aside, a minor quibble: bean bag guns, rubber bullets, and so one should more properly be referred to as "less lethal". *Any* weapon used to quell a riot is "potentially lethal" (to use your phrasing), with things like pepper spray and tear gas having a much lower chance of actually being lethal.

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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby 5hifty » Wed Aug 13, 2014 8:59 am

Like all these idea. If my prisoners can riot (which they can) and I can fail because of it (which I can), but also can recover from it (which I can) I need a better method of doing it then 'group guards into mob > send into room with riot mob > take high casualty's on both sides as mobs fight willynilly'
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby blackfalcon » Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:22 pm

I give my armed guards tazers. I dont give my regular staff tazers. My regular guards handle what they can and if they cant then i bring in an armored guard. If his tazer does work.. pew pew pew
Sporegen
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby Sporegen » Thu Aug 14, 2014 6:07 am

xander wrote:While I certainly wouldn't object if some or all of what you are suggesting is implemented, I personally just don't see the need. The primary emphasis of the game is on the design and running of a prison. If anyone is shooting, then you have already done something wrong. The rioting, bashing of heads, and discharge of firearms is like a little mini-game or cutscene to reinforce the idea that something, somewhere along the line, was done poorly. I'm okay with keeping it pretty simple and low-fi.


Good point, although I think it is important to make sure that designing a perfectly running prison is impossible. Somewhere along the line, something should always go wrong, be it the player's fault or simply bad luck. This is part of running your prison.
A lot of things can happen to throw your prison out of its fragile balance. When the player is designing his/her prison, he/she should keep these things in mind, as real architects do in real life, and design according to the risk the prisoners to be incarcerated pose.

Also, as an aside, a minor quibble: bean bag guns, rubber bullets, and so one should more properly be referred to as "less lethal". *Any* weapon used to quell a riot is "potentially lethal" (to use your phrasing), with things like pepper spray and tear gas having a much lower chance of actually being lethal.

xander


True, this is where the "bad luck" factor comes in again. When the player decides to hire Armed Guards, and bring firearms into his/her prison. He/she should know that this brings a risk of accidents. Even when lethal force is not authorized. This too, is a part of running your prison.
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby EddieG » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:38 am

Uh, in general there is "Less Lethal" rather than "Non-Lethal"

There are exceptions of course, and I'd love to see tear gas and bean bag rounds with an X% chance of straight up killing people, but I just don't think it will happen. I believe I've said it before, but Tazers should have a chance of killing people.
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby xander » Thu Aug 14, 2014 3:32 pm

EddieG wrote:Uh, in general there is "Less Lethal" rather than "Non-Lethal"


xander, a couple of posts up, wrote:Also, as an aside, a minor quibble: bean bag guns, rubber bullets, and so one should more properly be referred to as "less lethal". *Any* weapon used to quell a riot is "potentially lethal" (to use your phrasing), with things like pepper spray and tear gas having a much lower chance of actually being lethal


:P

Sporegen: I was not arguing that prisons should never go haywire, only that guards shooting is a kind of mini failure condition and that spending a huge amount of time making it an in-depth simulation seems a bit over the top, particularly when it should be a rare event. I'm perfectly happy with a relatively simple simulation, such as what already exists.

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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby 5hifty » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:50 pm

For Arguments sake, create a prison with as few as 50 prisoners, and then allow them to riot while the majority of them as in a single area, maybe even allow a few of the prisoners to arm them selves. Then try and quell that riot with out the casualtly count being around 30-50%. Now tell me what as the main cause of the casualtys.
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby KillerCam » Tue Sep 02, 2014 12:36 am

Sporegen wrote:Currently, I find that armed guards aren't versatile enough. They can either fight with their fists, or use lethal force with their shotgun. There is no in between.
The AI also doesn't respond very well to shootouts.
I therefore suggest some new features:
disclaimer: I know the rules state one suggestion per thread, but seeing as all these suggestions are on the same subject. I will post them all here anyway. Also, some of these things might have already been suggested. Please don't whine about it. :roll:

Three fire modes: (these are toggled with the same button, and will make it change color.)
  • Hold Fire: Guards will only use their firearms as melee weapons, in case they are not armed with a baton. They may still try to intimidate prisoners by pointing their weapon at them. White
  • Non-Lethal: Guards will threaten misbehaving prisoners with their firearms, making them surrender. If the prisoner refuses to surrender, they will fire non-lethal ammunition (bean bags). Orange
  • Lethal: Guards will fire potentially lethal ammunition at misbehaving prisoners, after they refuse to surrender. Red

  • Low change of accidents whereby an Armed Guard accidentally shoots a prisoner while attempting to force surrender. (This will add more risk to having armed guards.)
  • Firearms can be used as melee weapons, although a little less effective than batons. There is very low chance the prisoner grabs the weapon during melee, this chance also depends on the prisoner's traits.
  • Research to arm Armed Guards with Batons. Eliminating the risk of prisoners grabbing a weapon during melee.
  • Armed Guards and prisoners take cover behind corners, ... during a shootout.
  • Half-height materials to take cover behind, such as sandbags and metal covers. This has to be researched.
  • Prisoners will get less and less suppressed by Armed Guards over time, up to a certain minimum depending on the prisoner's traits. The suppression effect will reset itself once an Armed Guard successfully uses a firearm on a prisoner.
  • Ability to shoot through non-solid objects, such as jail doors.
  • Firearms need ammunition, of which Armed Guards carry a limited amount. The Armoury needs ammo boxes, these contain a large amount of ammunition for all weapons. They are automatically bought, just like Bleach.
  • Ability to shoot manually, using the same mechanics as the Firefighter's hose. :twisted:


"Armed Guards and prisoners take cover behind corners, ... during a shootout" Like In Rimworld?

"Prisoners will get less and less suppressed by Armed Guards over time, up to a certain minimum depending on the prisoner's traits. The suppression effect will reset itself once an Armed Guard successfully uses a firearm on a prisoner." This is extremely helpful considering you would get used to it.

Ability to shoot through non-solid objects, such as jail doors." Also important I've lost many armed guards by having to enter a cell

Great ideas +1 x whatever it is
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby snarst » Tue Sep 09, 2014 1:35 am

KillerCam wrote:
Sporegen wrote:Currently, I find that armed guards aren't versatile enough. They can either fight with their fists, or use lethal force with their shotgun. There is no in between.
The AI also doesn't respond very well to shootouts.
I therefore suggest some new features:
disclaimer: I know the rules state one suggestion per thread, but seeing as all these suggestions are on the same subject. I will post them all here anyway. Also, some of these things might have already been suggested. Please don't whine about it. :roll:

Three fire modes: (these are toggled with the same button, and will make it change color.)
  • Hold Fire: Guards will only use their firearms as melee weapons, in case they are not armed with a baton. They may still try to intimidate prisoners by pointing their weapon at them. White
  • Non-Lethal: Guards will threaten misbehaving prisoners with their firearms, making them surrender. If the prisoner refuses to surrender, they will fire non-lethal ammunition (bean bags). Orange
  • Lethal: Guards will fire potentially lethal ammunition at misbehaving prisoners, after they refuse to surrender. Red

  • Low change of accidents whereby an Armed Guard accidentally shoots a prisoner while attempting to force surrender. (This will add more risk to having armed guards.)
  • Firearms can be used as melee weapons, although a little less effective than batons. There is very low chance the prisoner grabs the weapon during melee, this chance also depends on the prisoner's traits.
  • Research to arm Armed Guards with Batons. Eliminating the risk of prisoners grabbing a weapon during melee.
  • Armed Guards and prisoners take cover behind corners, ... during a shootout.
  • Half-height materials to take cover behind, such as sandbags and metal covers. This has to be researched.
  • Prisoners will get less and less suppressed by Armed Guards over time, up to a certain minimum depending on the prisoner's traits. The suppression effect will reset itself once an Armed Guard successfully uses a firearm on a prisoner.
  • Ability to shoot through non-solid objects, such as jail doors.
  • Firearms need ammunition, of which Armed Guards carry a limited amount. The Armoury needs ammo boxes, these contain a large amount of ammunition for all weapons. They are automatically bought, just like Bleach.
  • Ability to shoot manually, using the same mechanics as the Firefighter's hose. :twisted:


"Armed Guards and prisoners take cover behind corners, ... during a shootout" Like In Rimworld?

"Prisoners will get less and less suppressed by Armed Guards over time, up to a certain minimum depending on the prisoner's traits. The suppression effect will reset itself once an Armed Guard successfully uses a firearm on a prisoner." This is extremely helpful considering you would get used to it.

Ability to shoot through non-solid objects, such as jail doors." Also important I've lost many armed guards by having to enter a cell

Great ideas +1 x whatever it is


If this was implemented would our prisoners still get points in security for being under armed guard? I place them around the prison so that a prisoner will always have around 2 or 3 suppression bars unless he's gone to bed and just woken up. The only ones who walk slow are those who have gotten out of solitary or been punished for taking the damn spoons. I like to make it so they arrive with max punishment and security score and keep it that way so that I can focus on reform classes, keeps the re offending rate around 12-16% depending on the luck I have.
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SpaceVelociraptor
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby SpaceVelociraptor » Wed Sep 10, 2014 3:07 pm

I think that prisoners getting used to armed guards is the most interesting idea here. Maybe this should be extended to other punishments as well, they start to work less and less as they are used. This would make people think twice about using solitary for every punishment, and it would make it so that prisoners that have been in your prison for a while would become "hardened". These prisoners would be much harder to control, and would add another layer of difficulty to the game.
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Re: [Suggestion] Improved Armed Guards / Firearm mechanics

Postby julkabas » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:35 am

SpaceVelociraptor wrote:This would make people think twice about using solitary for every punishment, and it would make it so that prisoners that have been in your prison for a while would become "hardened". These prisoners would be much harder to control, and would add another layer of difficulty to the game.


I like the idea! But then we should be able to give higher (longer) solitary sentences for repeated offences...

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