[Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff screen?

(previously 'DEVELOPER') Private forum for registered community members. To register, please visit www.prison-architect.com/register.

Moderator: NBJeff

User avatar
Sorenson
level1
level1
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 1:14 am

[Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff screen?

Postby Sorenson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 12:23 am

The larger your prison gets and the more developed it becomes, the more hectic things tend to get: more prisoners means you need more chefs to prepare food, more workers to build facilities and handle workshop deliveries, more doctors to deal with injuries. Depending on how thoroughly you've developed your security measures, however, that also means more checkpoints that staff have to be walked through by guards, which can cause some major back-ups that could lead to rather nasty consequences (chef can't deliver ingredients in time to feed all prisoners, super-hungry prisoners start making trouble, others join in, soon it's a riot depending on how bad things have gotten).

So what about an option on the staff screen to allow certain types of staff to have keys to open jail doors on their own, like a little checkbox or drop-down menu next to each staff type entry? That way they're no longer beholden to guards to clear the path for them and you can keep supply chains running smoothly. If you're not comfortable with certain types of staff having security access, you can keep them in the normal state state while allowing the ones you DO want to have the run of the system - workers might be too risky given their sheer numbers and frequency of opening the front gates making good escape attempt opprotuneties, but you could let doctors have access since their ability to get quickly to a location can literily be the difference between life and death.

Of course, letting more staff types have access to keys raises risks of its own - prisoners might be more inclined to attack staff if they think they can get their key and squirrel it away before they egt put in lockdown, for example - but that's one of those risk-reward deals that should be open to the player.
Artophwar
level1
level1
Posts: 17
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 5:31 pm

Postby Artophwar » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:56 am

I really like this idea.
zachs33
level0
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:59 am

Postby zachs33 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:33 am

What's wrong with staff doors? In all my most recent prisons, chefs are able to come and go through my prison with ease. Prisoners can't even get near the staff doors on the entrance/exit to my prison because of staff only zones - i.e. they'll be beaten if they're caught anywhere near there (there's also solitary lockdown doors if there should be an attempted escape). Equally my canteen has a staff entrance to the kitchen and it's marked as staff only. (http://oi41.tinypic.com/wqx62o.jpg, http://oi43.tinypic.com/24y35ma.jpg)

If Doctors need to get somewhere quickly, the player is most likely deploying them somewhere (no autonomous travel). The player should be keeping an eye on prisoners' health and any incidents and can right click on the doors to allow deployed doctors to gain quick access to wherever they are needed.

I think more complex deployment options would accomplish what you want:
--> Assign specific staff to specific facilities / zones - with access to those zones (jail doors automatic?)
--> Deployment paths for staff and prisoners - i.e. draw the routes that staff and prisoners should use (although prisoners may defy these routes). E.g. path for prisoner release to use certain doors/path for prisoner intake to use certain doors.
--> Support for multiple canteens, kitchens, infirmaries, etc for min/general/max prisoners
User avatar
Sorenson
level1
level1
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon May 06, 2013 1:14 am

Postby Sorenson » Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:12 pm

zachs33 wrote:What's wrong with staff doors?

Not double-wide and I don't think they'd properly function for the front gate, not to mention there could be issues with released prisoners not being able to leave prisons since they aren't technically "staff". And it just doesn't look right to have anything other than pair of Large Jail Door being used for my airlock enterance.

In all my most recent prisons, chefs are able to come and go through my prison with ease. Prisoners can't even get near the staff doors on the entrance/exit to my prison because of staff only zones - i.e. they'll be beaten if they're caught anywhere near there (there's also solitary lockdown doors if there should be an attempted escape). Equally my canteen has a staff entrance to the kitchen and it's marked as staff only. (http://oi41.tinypic.com/wqx62o.jpg, http://oi43.tinypic.com/24y35ma.jpg)

That just seems like one big jailbreak waiting to happen if you ever decide to have prisoners working in there. Source of potent weapons, single guard watching over what could be 8 or more prisoners, all it'd take is one bad day and there'd be a knife in the guard's back and a messa' inmates beating on those doors trying to get out. I use a centralized hall system with an airlock at the enterance for just this reason.
User avatar
_alphaBeta_
level4
level4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Mon Aug 19, 2013 11:07 pm

Anyone know the eventual plan for doors? Being this is a prison game, I would think there eventually would be abilities to fine-tune door behavior so that your staff treat them as intended. Let's walk through an Alpha-12 example (click to enlarge photos). The name of the game here is to avoid staff having to wait for a regular jail door to open.
Image
Kitchen and canteen, with the canteen to the East, closer to the delivery area. Although it's a bit cut-off by the screenshot, the kitchen works nicely. Cooks enter and leave the kitchen through the staff-only doors, and there's no unauthorized access with the staff only deployment. Issue came up when cooks and workers need to access the storage area to the west of the yard. The shortest path going west was through the jail door, so they waited for a guard to open it. This issue could be alleviated right here if the staff chose the staff-only route, even though it's technically in the wrong direction. I imagine the path finding would need to be adjusted so staff find alternate routes, and heavily penalize routes that involved closed doors. Setting these parameters would be tricky since it would need to be determined at what point going in the wrong direction is counter productive. This is why I'd like to see the player have more control over doors. For my play style, I'd prefer they take the longer path.

The first screenshot above was my attempt to fix this problem. When this door was completed, a consequence of the new contraband system presented a problem. Prisoners started using this door to avoid the metal detector. Per the Alpha-8 change log I understand that these "staff doors" aren't really staff-only doors. Prisoners are seeing this door as another jail door like the rest. Taking the advice of the change log, I created a small airlock and set it to staff only:
Image
This works, but at the expense of creating a corridor and using two doors to actually be a Staff-ONLY door.
Another issue came up when staff from the holding cell to the south wanted to access the canteen, specifically the west side of the canteen. They did not use the staff door, but once again waited for the jail door. I'm guessing the simulation still sees the staff path as too long.

Now I started expanding my staff corridor idea (which I had already started with the workshops in this screenshot):
Image

For the most part, this does bypass the jail door for staff, but not for all scenarios since it depends where the staff are coming from and where in the room they're going. I could probably make this even more robust by adding additional staff doors immediately west and east of the jail doors into the staff corridor. Now I'm using six doors, multiple lights, brick walls etc. just to achieve a truly staff-ONLY access into the canteen.

On top of that, the guards are now making use of my staff corridors, which once again, bypasses the metal detectors.
Image

I'm demonstrating a concept here, so let's not discuss how some of these scenarios wouldn't come up all the time. These concepts come up elsewhere with sheet metal deliveries to workshops, janitor access, and prison main entrances to name a few. Could I put a metal detector on the original staff door above? Yes, I could. The point here is that I don't want prisoners to use this door at all.

So how should this work? Couple options as I see them:
  1. Have each door configurable by the player. Essentially have a tick box screen where you select whether prisoners (including min/max specific options perhaps?), guards, workmen, janitors and every other staff type can use the door. Doors should have a default configuration, for those that don't want to get down into this level of micromanagement. Not every door would need it.
  2. Create a true staff-ONLY door that doesn't rely on deployment zones.
  3. Adjust the staff path finding to prefer routes that don't involve having to wait for someone else to open a door.

Shouldn't come as a surprise that I think option 1 is the only one that covers all the scenarios. Option 2 and 3 are issues for guards, especially for main gates, as they can't prevent guards from choosing these paths with prisoners. These options are also contingent on dynamically adjusting the path finding system as previously discussed. Even then, unless staff are allowed (per the path finding algorithm) to go way out of the way for staff doors, the player desired behavior may still not be achieved. In my example above, I really just want guards and prisoners to use the jail door, and everyone else to use the kitchen. I don't want guards to use the staff door, and I don't want non-guard staff to use the jail door. No path finding thresholds would be necessary if I could specify this behavior. If I'm a workmen, my only way into the room is the staff door, and if I'm a guard (with or without prisoner) my only path is the jail door.

Comments are welcome. There's a number of bug trackers on this, but it's not clear what's a bug. We need to agree on intended behavior first.
LostInTheWired
level0
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:26 am
Location: United States

Postby LostInTheWired » Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:20 pm

That sort of functionality for doors would be very welcome. Another thing that would likely help alleviate a lot of issues is a door "schedule", so to speak. Basically, you could set times of the day that the jail doors and such open and close, so they can all be open during meal time, but close just when meal time ends, so everyone can be checked as they leave the canteen, or have certain routes for prisoner's open at a certain time of day, then having prisoners locked away from areas later (such as locked into their cell block as the night goes on), all without manually having to do this to the doors.
irichey25
level0
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:38 am
Location: The Moon

Re:

Postby irichey25 » Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:07 am

LostInTheWired wrote:That sort of functionality for doors would be very welcome. Another thing that would likely help alleviate a lot of issues is a door "schedule", so to speak. Basically, you could set times of the day that the jail doors and such open and close, so they can all be open during meal time, but close just when meal time ends, so everyone can be checked as they leave the canteen, or have certain routes for prisoner's open at a certain time of day, then having prisoners locked away from areas later (such as locked into their cell block as the night goes on), all without manually having to do this to the doors.

I way actually thinking of something like that, it'd be very useful.
User avatar
_alphaBeta_
level4
level4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re:

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Wed Sep 04, 2013 2:05 pm

LostInTheWired wrote:That sort of functionality for doors would be very welcome. Another thing that would likely help alleviate a lot of issues is a door "schedule", so to speak. Basically, you could set times of the day that the jail doors and such open and close, so they can all be open during meal time, but close just when meal time ends, so everyone can be checked as they leave the canteen, or have certain routes for prisoner's open at a certain time of day, then having prisoners locked away from areas later (such as locked into their cell block as the night goes on), all without manually having to do this to the doors.

I'm pretty sure I saw a post somewhere (could have been wiki, web, forums; I've been trying to find it for a week now unsuccessfully) where Chris said this was the eventual plan, which would be really nice. I thought I read that there would be a timer device (similar to a power switch or valve; opens possibility of a new utility) where you would connect jail doors together on a circuit (or mechanical fixturing somehow; pulleys etc.) and be able to take control of the automatic door opening. As we all know regular jail doors associated with cells open automatically (and magically) during freetime, yard, eat and shower. It would be nice to have more direct control, especially if segregation comes online as I don't want every cell jail door open at the same time in a large prison.

Does anyone remember this posted somewhere? I'd like to think I didn't dream it up.
User avatar
_alphaBeta_
level4
level4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re: Re:

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:58 pm

For the sake of completeness, I found the post by Chris outlining the plan forward with door automation, servos, and timers. Haven't seen much more about this, so I hope it's still in the plan. At least guards opening doors has been implemented, but let's hope it doesn't stop there.

From A Roadmap for Prison architect:
Chris wrote:Other changes coming up soon (ie partially finished) are an overhaul of the door lock system - meaning prisoners will no longer be able to just wander through doors whenever they like. Guards must now unlock doors with their keys, and this can keep the guards very busy in large prisons. Even staff members have to be let through by Guards, so there is now an incentive to use unlocked office doors in non-prisoner areas - an interesting security tradeoff. Jail-Cell doors are the exception, opening automatically when it’s lunchtime, yard time etc, but I may consider making this automation something you have to build in yourself using servos and timers eventually. And of course, your Guards drop their keys when knocked unconscious, and Prisoners will pick them up...
henke37
level2
level2
Posts: 156
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:22 pm
Location: Sweden

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby henke37 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:17 pm

Uhm, yeah. That has been implemented since like alpha 8
User avatar
paktsardines
level5
level5
Posts: 1752
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby paktsardines » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:56 am

Uhm, yeah. That has been implemented since like alpha 8

Oh, that's good to know. Perhaps you'd be so kind as to tell me where I can find door servos and timers in my objects list...
zaroba
level1
level1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:24 am

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby zaroba » Sat Sep 07, 2013 3:34 am

Sorenson wrote:The larger your prison gets and the more developed it becomes, the more hectic things tend to get: more prisoners means you need more chefs to prepare food, more workers to build facilities and handle workshop deliveries, more doctors to deal with injuries. Depending on how thoroughly you've developed your security measures, however, that also means more checkpoints that staff have to be walked through by guards, which can cause some major back-ups that could lead to rather nasty consequences (chef can't deliver ingredients in time to feed all prisoners, super-hungry prisoners start making trouble, others join in, soon it's a riot depending on how bad things have gotten).

So what about an option on the staff screen to allow certain types of staff to have keys to open jail doors on their own, like a little checkbox or drop-down menu next to each staff type entry? That way they're no longer beholden to guards to clear the path for them and you can keep supply chains running smoothly. If you're not comfortable with certain types of staff having security access, you can keep them in the normal state state while allowing the ones you DO want to have the run of the system - workers might be too risky given their sheer numbers and frequency of opening the front gates making good escape attempt opprotuneties, but you could let doctors have access since their ability to get quickly to a location can literily be the difference between life and death.

Of course, letting more staff types have access to keys raises risks of its own - prisoners might be more inclined to attack staff if they think they can get their key and squirrel it away before they egt put in lockdown, for example - but that's one of those risk-reward deals that should be open to the player.



I'm not against the idea, but It all depends on how you design your prison and if your staff is getting delayed by having to go threw umpteen million checkpoints, then perhaps a remodeling would be more appropriate to do then giving everybody keys. Like having the store room and kitchen directly north or south of your main entrance with a staff-only hallway leading right to the main entrance. Then your staff will only have to go threw 1 door, maybe none.
User avatar
_alphaBeta_
level4
level4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:11 am

zaroba wrote:I'm not against the idea, but It all depends on how you design your prison and if your staff is getting delayed by having to go threw umpteen million checkpoints, then perhaps a remodeling would be more appropriate to do then giving everybody keys. Like having the store room and kitchen directly north or south of your main entrance with a staff-only hallway leading right to the main entrance. Then your staff will only have to go threw 1 door, maybe none.

My post above outlines how this isn't so easy sometimes, complete with screenshots experimenting with staff corridors. They work sometimes. With the pathfinding the way it is, and the absence of more control over door security, it's still quite possible that staff will wait for locked doors to be opened, or guards/prisoners will make use of them against the player's wishes and design intentions.

Having a staff corridor in very close proximity to the delivery section feeding a kitchen is quite doable as you say. I had some success with this with the workshop that's visible in some screenshots above. While I'm sure you can tweak it further to be even more robust, I think it's way too much experimentation and micromanagement to accomplish what should be an easy task. But this problem will only get worse long-term when we will hopefully see many kitchens spread throughout massive prisons. This will compound the current problem further.
zaroba
level1
level1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:24 am

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby zaroba » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:05 pm

I can't honestly say I've ever had issues with it, but everybody will have their own experiences.
Only non-staff I ever saw trying to use them was released prisoners. Not counting rioters with keys anyway.

Image
Kitchen in top left, storage at top right.
Kitchen has a direct path threw the store room hallway and right out the front gate (bottom right).
(the large jail doors in the hallway will be locked open, the prison doesn't have any prisoners yet)

And if the door in the hallway is locked shut, then they just have to go threw the main building. They will only get stopped by the checkpoint at the right side of the holding cell since the metal detector room doors will be locked open.
User avatar
_alphaBeta_
level4
level4
Posts: 534
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:20 pm
Location: NJ, USA

Re: [Suggestion] Staff security access setting in Staff scre

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:35 pm

I'm glad you found a layout that works as you intend. :) I think it's a bit easier to accomplish with an outside prison when compared to a mostly indoor prison, like my example above. Still, as I said earlier this works sometimes.

I think having this capability would also give the player some customization possibilities that don't necessitate spending money. I think all detailed simulation games need this component, otherwise things can become rather boring waiting for funds.

Return to “Community Members”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest