[NEW USERS, READ FIRST] How to post a suggestion or question

[Xoligy]

Aah ok, cool maybe i mis-understood while i was drunk haha

Anyway i'll just end it there, no need to argue with people there ideas and how forums are run specially when i doubt much will change. I admit the whole ideas idea on the forum does need to change, it could be better devised but thats no my job to come up with a solution. I just help out when i can =)

Anyway back to Splinter Cell

[Spectre Incarnate]

Here's where the moderation comes in. Wiki moderators enforce the identification of the "chosen thread" in the master list. Forum moderators post official guidance to check the master list first, and continue discussions in the "chosen thread" for that suggestion. Forum moderators can enforce the guidance by politely closing duplicate threads and providing a link to the "chosen thread." This keeps the relevant discussions all focused and in one place. These boards are a bit older, but perhaps moderators can merge threads as well..

That is brilliant! Could it still be partially handled somehow in our current position of having no forum moderators, though? Also, I'm not sure if you saw my post in the Wiki Mod thread, but I think you'd make a great moderator, whether it be the wiki or forum or both.

[Novbert]

+1 for sticky

As for having one topic per suggestion? That would still be hundreds of topics from each member and there are no sub-forums or moderators to reorganize them in, so I doubt that will clean things up much, but we'll see.

I also feel like that, thus I support rephrasing Rule 6 to something like: If you have multiple unrelated suggestions, create a separate thread for each.

I mean some people here have great ideas for single features, but others like to think about how ideas could be combined, which is just as important.

[xander]

--==<snip>==--

I see. You have incorrectly made the all (or even any) of my posts are intended to "police" the forums.

xander

[paktsardines]

Just adding two cents:

I don't think suggestions should go in Mantis, fundamentally because the suggestions are already here. I don't see any advantage mantis offers over the forums, and certainly none to justify starting another repository of suggestions (or, heaven forbid, migrating the existing suggestions over).
If there's one thing the forums do very well, they're excellent facilitators of discussions. Suggestions need discussions and mantis is nowhere near as good in that regard.

Similarly I'm against suggestions going in the wiki. Partly because I'm against most wikis, but mainly again, because of the need for discussions, which these forums are much better at providing.

[xander]

Just adding two cents:

I don't think suggestions should go in Mantis, fundamentally because the suggestions are already here. I don't see any advantage mantis offers over the forums, and certainly none to justify starting another repository of suggestions (or, heaven forbid, migrating the existing suggestions over).
If there's one thing the forums do very well, they're excellent facilitators of discussions. Suggestions need discussions and mantis is nowhere near as good in that regard.

Similarly I'm against suggestions going in the wiki. Partly because I'm against most wikis, but mainly again, because of the need for discussions, which these forums are much better at providing.

Add the word "exclusively," and I am with you 100%. I don't think that suggestions belong exclussively in the tracker or wiki. However, I think that suggestions and feature requests should be added to both as they are discussed in the forums. It gives IV a nice box to check off (or ignore). I like boxes that can be checked off (or ignored). ;)

xander

[Spectre Incarnate]

--==<snip>==--

I see. You have incorrectly made the all (or even any) of my posts are intended to "police" the forums.

Those were quotes from various people, not just you, because you tried telling me that what I perceived as rudeness around these forums was actually brevity. My husband busted up laughing when I showed him that one.

[xander]

--==<snip>==--

I see. You have incorrectly made the all (or even any) of my posts are intended to "police" the forums.

Those were quotes from various people, not just you, because you tried telling me that what I perceived as rudeness around these forums was actually brevity. My husband busted up laughing when I showed him that one.

My understanding was that you were complaining about forum "police" being rude. Since those posts aren't trying to get anyone to behave in any particular way, I didn't (and don't) see them as forum policing. I will happily admit that I am often rude---it is in my nature---but I try only to be rude to those that deserve it. I think that most of the rudeness you see from the people that you accuse of being "forum police" in the context of "forum policing" is simply brevity, but you project your own dislike for certain people on everything that they post, and make an assumption that they (we?) are being hostile a priori.

To clarify my previous point, I did not say that there is no rudeness on the boards. There is some rudeness on the boards---that's life, and I don't really see that anything needs to be done about it. The fact that I am still trying to have a cogent conversation with you is evidence of that fact---you strike me as an incredibly rude and dictatorial kind of person, but I am capable of separating my mild personal dislike for you from the content of your posts. That said, I think that much of the rudeness that you are perceiving is more charitably attributed to brevity. This thread is a good example. You have decided that I am a rude person, and you choose to read everything that I write as though it is intended to be sarcastic and mean spirited. What I find really funny is that you then rudely attack me and try to police my behaviour---the very actions that you are accusing me of! If you are going to be a tone troll, you really do have to be careful to moderate your own tone.

xander

[_alphaBeta_]

Here's where the moderation comes in. Wiki moderators enforce the identification of the "chosen thread" in the master list. Forum moderators post official guidance to check the master list first, and continue discussions in the "chosen thread" for that suggestion. Forum moderators can enforce the guidance by politely closing duplicate threads and providing a link to the "chosen thread." This keeps the relevant discussions all focused and in one place. These boards are a bit older, but perhaps moderators can merge threads as well..

That is brilliant! Could it still be partially handled somehow in our current position of having no forum moderators, though? Also, I'm not sure if you saw my post in the Wiki Mod thread, but I think you'd make a great moderator, whether it be the wiki or forum or both.

Appreciate the endorsement. No I don't feel this can work without some moderation. If discussions are still spread out in many places, it defeats the purpose in my mind. My suggestions revolves around putting all the information in some key areas to make it very easy for the developers to see what the suggestions are and how they've been received.

Just adding two cents:

I don't think suggestions should go in Mantis, fundamentally because the suggestions are already here. I don't see any advantage mantis offers over the forums, and certainly none to justify starting another repository of suggestions (or, heaven forbid, migrating the existing suggestions over).
If there's one thing the forums do very well, they're excellent facilitators of discussions. Suggestions need discussions and mantis is nowhere near as good in that regard.

Similarly I'm against suggestions going in the wiki. Partly because I'm against most wikis, but mainly again, because of the need for discussions, which these forums are much better at providing.

Add the word "exclusively," and I am with you 100%. I don't think that suggestions belong exclussively in the tracker or wiki. However, I think that suggestions and feature requests should be added to both as they are discussed in the forums. It gives IV a nice box to check off (or ignore). I like boxes that can be checked off (or ignored).

xander

Well this really goes back to what would be most helpful to IV, which none of us can answer. There's a centralized and decentralized approach. I've outlined how I envision the former which has worked well in the past of my experience. The status quo decentralized approach isn't a bad solution, but as I said, I feel it can be better. That's just my opinion. The decentralized approach requires IV to actively search several types of medium for the suggestions themselves and the associated discussion. Searching may not be that easy either since some people are naming threads with [idea] and others with [suggestions] as a quick example. It's not a one click thing is my point. The centralized has some drawbacks with moderation requirements, and the initial work involved to organize existing suggestions would be quite a bit. Pros and cons all around, but it's impossible to choose one over the other without some requirements from IV.

[NeoThermic]

So I finally saw the requests to make this a sticky. Next time, please, you're welcome to PM me for legit requests to make topics sticky (abuse of this will make me revoke your PM ability...).

NeoThermic

[prototype]

create a suggestion sub forum?

[xander]

create a suggestion sub forum?

That is pretty much what the developer forum is, since bugs are supposed to be reported to the tracker.

xander

[air805ronin]

Point of order question...

Several other forums I visit for alpha games discourage bumping ancient threads due to the fact active development can make old posts (older than 6 or so months) lose thier applicability.

My case: I want to make a suggestion thread regarding staff shifts, payment, care and feeding.

I do a search and all of the threads dedicated to it are over 4-5 months old. Much of their information is still good information, but some of it seems to need updating since the information applies to Alphas from over a year ago. There are posts about staff shifts within the last 3 months on other threads.

I bring this up because I don't want to be told how dumb I am because I have searched and I do see older threads. At some point these old threads become irrelevant and a new one is not such a horrible thing.

[xander]

Several other forums I visit for alpha games discourage bumping ancient threads due to the fact active development can make old posts (older than 6 or so months) lose thier applicability.

This is not "several other forums." If you find a thread that is applicable, please bump that rather than starting a new thread. It doesn't matter how old it is, just so long as what you have to say is relevant. In the case that you describe, you might begin your post with something to the effect of "I see that this thread is a year old, and some of the stuff discussed has been implemented already, but here are my related ideas..." Alternatively, if you really do think that your idea is so very groundbreaking and different from every other thread, but you see tangentially related threads, you can start with "There are a few threads discussing a similar idea ([link 1] [link 2] [link 3]), but all of them are quite old, and my idea is new and different in the following ways..."

Ultimately, the forums function better when threads serve to foster conversation. If there are a hundred different threads that all begin "This game needs more Wumpuses!", then it as though we are all standing in a crowded room shouting at the top of our lungs with our ears plugged. The relative merits of ideas are never discussed, and ideas are never fleshed out. On the other hand, by bumping an older topic, you acknowledge that someone else had a good idea, then build upon it. Ultimately, this is far more productive.

xander

[planettop92]

This really comes down to what IV wants to use for suggestions. Do they even need them so organized anymore? They may have a master list themselves somewhere and read the forums regularly for updates. They may have a plan that outlines everything they plan to introduce already, which doesn't have room for a whole lot more content. It's only worth putting a system together, beyond the current forums posts we're doing now, if it's going to get some use and make a difference.

^ this.

Also, should there be a link to the actual wiki page?: http://devwiki.introversion.co.uk/pa/in ... uggestions
and a rule/guideline to check the page if the suggestion already exists and to occasionally update the page with a link to a related forum post if the suggestion exists but hasn't yet been noted? I don't know how many people actually check the wiki however...