[idea] Add multi levels

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AngryOwl
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[idea] Add multi levels

Postby AngryOwl » Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:54 pm

Would be really cool to have a way to have an upstairs and downstairs++. This could lead to some really fun designs and possibly to prisoners digging tunnels out of their cells overtime with a spoon to VICTORY!

Definitely not the easiest thing to implement and probably has been suggested before but an idea to think about.
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MAdMaN
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Re: [idea] Add multi levels

Postby MAdMaN » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:20 pm

AngryOwl wrote:probably has been suggested before

A quick search would've showed you that it has. It isn't going to happen though, especially now that we can buy extra land to expand our prisons.

AngryOwl wrote:prisoners digging tunnels out of their cells overtime with a spoon

That's going to happen when Chris implements escapes. Having a single floor doesn't mean it can't happen.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:05 pm

Just because we can buy land now doesn't mean we couldn't have a few Dwarf Fortress z-levels at some point? Maybe we get a few levels of basement to any land or could build on top of a hill in the next sector over? The land we buy might not be ideal, either. Could have a swamp or a housing development that we have to circumvent somehow.
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Postby ZestyLemons » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:31 pm

I personally think having multiple levels is a great idea, as it really stresses the need for guards/cameras to look over everything. Building up would be somewhat cheaper than building out, but you'd need a lot more staff in general to handle it.

It'd also be cool if you could risk having a building collapse if there was a really bad fire n stuff.
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Postby 4folders » Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:47 pm

Spectre Incarnate wrote: The land we buy might not be ideal, either. Could have a swamp or a housing development that we have to circumvent somehow.


In some of the release videos there are lakes, which Chris has said will be in a future update, so it only stands to reason that he'll try and bring more things like this in the future.
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Postby lmaoboat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:09 am

I really think z-levels could add a lot of depth to this game.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:49 am

lmaoboat wrote:I really think z-levels could add a lot of depth to this game.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Garnasha » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:20 am

lmaoboat wrote:I really think z-levels could add a lot of depth to this game.
I think I have found a sigquote. And another vote for z-levels, for three reasons: 1. All real prisons I've seen footage of are multi-storied 2. It'll allow more compact effective hi-sec construction patterns. Nothing like a tower to lock up [s]a princess[/s] hardened criminals 3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.
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Postby xander » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:53 am

Garnasha wrote:1. All real prisons I've seen footage of are multi-storied

Gameplay trumps realism. Aesthetics trump realism. "It is realistic" is a very poor argument.

Garnasha wrote:2. It'll allow more compact effective hi-sec construction patterns. Nothing like a tower to lock up [s]a princess[/s] hardened criminals

Perhaps "compact" and "effective" are the antithesis of what the game designers want. Maybe large prisons with lots of prisoners are not supposed to be efficient or compact. There is certainly an aesthetic/narrative argument to be made in that direction

Garnasha wrote:3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.

Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress. Copying features from anther game just because said other game is good is not creative nor innovative, and is no guarantee that the features under discussion would be worthwhile.

---

As I see it, right now, there is no good gameplay reason to provide extra stories. Most of the suggestions for why it is a good idea focus on (1) time to get from one place to anther, which can easily be justified as a gameplay / balance issue that intentionally makes larger prisons harder to manage, and (2) a way of introducing lots of features that don't currently exist (steam pipes, skylights, catwalks, and so on). It seems to me that Prison Architect is doing a pretty good job of being a 2D management sim, much like the original SimCity. Why wreck that simplicity?

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Postby HerrJoebob » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:24 am

Garnasha wrote:
lmaoboat wrote:I really think z-levels could add a lot of depth to this game.
I think I have found a sigquote. And another vote for z-levels, for three reasons: 1. All real prisons I've seen footage of are multi-storied 2. It'll allow more compact effective hi-sec construction patterns. Nothing like a tower to lock up [s]a princess[/s] hardened criminals 3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.


Wait, what good example was set by Dwarf Fortress? It's a great game as an art project but to new players the thing is impenetrable and just punitive... If anything it's an example of how not to build a game that you want to make money on.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:01 am

xander wrote:
Garnasha wrote:3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.

Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress. Copying features from anther game just because said other game is good is not creative nor innovative, and is no guarantee that the features under discussion would be worthwhile.

As I see it, right now, there is no good gameplay reason to provide extra stories. Most of the suggestions for why it is a good idea focus on (1) time to get from one place to anther, which can easily be justified as a gameplay / balance issue that intentionally makes larger prisons harder to manage, and (2) a way of introducing lots of features that don't currently exist (steam pipes, skylights, catwalks, and so on). It seems to me that Prison Architect is doing a pretty good job of being a 2D management sim, much like the original SimCity. Why wreck that simplicity?


Very sorry, but I disagree. Considering I am here because of the promo video where Mark specifically said in his dorky dramatic voice, and I quote...

"Prison Architect!..... Inspired by Theme Hospital, Dungeon Keeper, and DWARF FORTRESS."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDzSOS0vzc

Those are three of the best heavy management simulation games, full of lots of detail and customization. I do not think this game will be in the vein of SimCity, nor will it stay simplistic. I do not know for sure, but that is my assumption based on what the devs were inspired by. So, I am extremely hopeful and looking forward to the game becoming much deeper and heavily detailed as time goes on, with several aspects of DF included. I'm not saying we need magma, elves, and ghosts, but since the game is inspired by detailed management simulations, those of us that were drawn to this game for that very reason would like multiple levels to design with, different terrain to circumnavigate, personalities and physical/mental issues for staff and prisoners, and deciding what people eat for breakfast on Tuesday. I really don't see why the game would stay simplistic just because it has simple, stylized graphics and because you think the devs are keeping it simple... because....??

It just doesn't look that way to me.

But regardless of whether the creators vision of the game is different, that does not mean we can't express our views on how we as players want the game to be like and try and push for those features, since that's what this forum is essentially for. To discuss what the players want in the game and be a part of it's design.

And to whoever said DF is a nice art project, but nothing else. You're damn right it is a nice art project. It is also the most detailed, customizable, heavy micromanagement simulation game ever and it was put in the Museum of Modern Art in New York for a very good reason --- for it's designing elements and limitless potential. I agree it's a hard one for newbies to get into, but that's due to the menu system and no tutorial... which Prison Architect already trumps, so far. (Although, that button system is being added onto every alpha, so I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. :P )

What the devs of PA could do with *some* of the aspects of DF actually does make a lot of sense for a prison simulation, since DF pretty much *is* a prison simulation... well, a fort where no one leaves and everyone is put to work or drafted into an army and everyone eventually dies, so a really sadistic prison simulation, but one nonetheless. :lol:

So, since the game devs actually did say this game was inspired by DF, there will be lots of references and suggestions based on DF. If that bothers you... I'm sorry?? :roll:
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paktsardines
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Postby paktsardines » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:51 pm

Prison Architect!..... Inspired by THEME HOSPITAL, Dungeon Keeper, and dwarf fortress.


There fixed. Theme hospital wasn't multi-story either.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:24 pm

paktsardines wrote:
Prison Architect!..... Inspired by THEME HOSPITAL, Dungeon Keeper, and dwarf fortress.


There fixed. Theme hospital wasn't multi-story either.


*raised eyebrow*

I've only been here a few days and already I know you tend to change the subject and twist words to make yourself look superior and I really have no interest in pandering to your petty nonsense. :roll:

We weren't talking about Theme Hospital. xander said that Prison Architect was not Dwarf Fortress. I simply pointed out that it was at least inspired by DF and that that is reason enough for some of us to want to suggest ideas from it and hope that PA will draw more aspects from it in the future.

Now, unless you have something to say that actually pertains to the subject at hand, go bug someone else.
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Postby JamesBr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:45 pm

I love how frequently this topic comes up and how many people are like "Nooo, don't ruin our fun!! A third dimension will be too complicated!!"
Although difficult to code (especially when it isn't designed from the get-go), working in three dimension is NOT hard, it just requires adjusting your perspective. And it's not necessary if you don't want to. You want everything on one z, do it, you can expand the map if run out of space. This is no good reason not to add a third dimension other then they don't want to (lack of time/money/interest; valid reasons, in and of themselves), but claiming "gameplay complexity" as a reason not to do something in a complex simulation game is ridiculous. It doesn't even need to be full blown DF style z-levels either, I would accept only a single basement level and a second floor, that can be cycled through with the +/- keys.
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Postby xander » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:33 pm

Spectre Incarnate wrote:
xander wrote:
Garnasha wrote:3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.

Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress. Copying features from anther game just because said other game is good is not creative nor innovative, and is no guarantee that the features under discussion would be worthwhile.

As I see it, right now, there is no good gameplay reason to provide extra stories. Most of the suggestions for why it is a good idea focus on (1) time to get from one place to anther, which can easily be justified as a gameplay / balance issue that intentionally makes larger prisons harder to manage, and (2) a way of introducing lots of features that don't currently exist (steam pipes, skylights, catwalks, and so on). It seems to me that Prison Architect is doing a pretty good job of being a 2D management sim, much like the original SimCity. Why wreck that simplicity?


Very sorry, but I disagree. Considering I am here because of the promo video where Mark specifically said in his dorky dramatic voice, and I quote...

"Prison Architect!..... Inspired by Theme Hospital, Dungeon Keeper, and DWARF FORTRESS."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDzSOS0vzc


It is like read "Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress," and stopped reading. Since you didn't respond to anything that I actually wrote, but rather some strawman of your own invention, I don't think that I need to say anything else.

JamesBr: You, also, are attacking a strawman. Who is arguing that multiple stories would be too complicated? I have argued that they are unnecessary and that they add very little to the game as it is now. Not that they would be too complicated (from a gameplay perspective), but that they don't fix with the theme very well (the simple aesthetic---contrast complex aesthetic with complex gameplay).

xander

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