Suggestion: New Object: Front Gates

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Oreo112
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Postby Oreo112 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:00 pm

The problem I have with my entry into the prison has to do with my cooks. I don't like making my cooks wait for guards to open jail doors for them when they leave the kitchen to pick up supplies from the Deliveries area. So to stop that, I usually put in a staff-only door and staff-only corridor leading from Kitchen/Storage to deliveries. Problem is when prisoners arrive, the guards almost always take them through the staff area.

I think a good fix would be to staff-only doors to be staff-ONLY. No prisoners, even if escorted in cuffs by a guard.
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Postby LadyofHats » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:11 am

xander wrote:
LadyofHats wrote:what about an option for each door marking who can or should, or shouldnt pass it. so that it will open automatically for certain people but not for others.. maybe you could unlock it after getting the security room

Probably owing in large part to its descent from Subversion, Prison Architect takes a kind of systems-level approach to things. Locked doors open because there is a key. Prisoners can potentially steal the key, and escape. This makes sense both from a gameplay perspective (there is a balance between easy movement for staff and easy movement for prisoners) and from a systems-level point of view (doors have keys). Can you explain how automatically opening doors work in light of both of these concerns?

xander


well i understand your point, but what if the man on the camera consoles could open (or close) doors that are under the view from the camera. and if so, cant you instruct him who can cross that door?. that way when a cook aproaches the door he doesnt have to wait until a policemen comes by.

also you should be able to declare some areas off limits to prisoners. that is even if they are been moved by a policemen. so that if a prisoner is arround the policemen would react as if he was trying to escape

or in worst if it is all about the keys, then create 3 sets of keys, (red, blue, green) and then decide each character wich doors can open , and each door wich key it needs. ( honestly is as system level as it gets but would mean tons and tons of clicking)
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Postby christhekiller » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:43 am

That sounds vaguely of how doors used to be.

I believe it was, though I've now forgotten,
"Guard Only"
"Staff Only"
and "Everyone"

Me personally I kinda like the idea of having road gates or something to that affect that opens for trucks and can be opened by guards (or their keys) and it would be place able on the road, that way you can create a sort of indoor area for your deliveries and garbage rather simply. Though I imagine it would be a rather costly door as going across the road would mean it's a 1x5 gate.

But yea, I say allow us to build a gate that blocks the road.
The problem of kitchen laborers making a break for it when they go to the deliveries would be nullified.

You can even maybe have prisoners who do some worker stuff like moving sheet metal and garbage, that'd be nice
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Postby zetathix » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:05 pm

IMHO I love to see door which build simply by the way you build the wall. But keep it limit to 5 blocks long or so.

This way I can see it works as "dynamic door placement", possible to build while you can ignore about what door you will using, but click it to see level of authority (LOA) options to pass. And then workers will automatically place the correct door for the type you choose it to be. LOA can change it on-the-fly.
If it doesn't change the previous material. I mean if firstly you choose "typical" (or something...low LOA), Workers will order and install wooden door. And then you change it to "staff" LOA, they will just paint it to green and change door's tag. But if you choose "high" or "max" (which material should be metal), Workers will order other metal door and replace it for you.

Ok, that's a lazy system...but I think the look will change by the size of the door/gate. And that's procedural method I think, IV style...

+1 to E-door and guards who look at CCTV will shut them. But I looking for obj which attach to any door and it will turn to E-door and a botton which attach to CCTV console. Or specify switch console obj that need to place by side of the CCTV console.
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Postby _alphaBeta_ » Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:24 pm

The idea regarding the electronic front gate makes sense, or at least have the front door keyed differently. In a modern prison, a prisoner cannot acquire a guard's keys and open every door between them and freedom. The guards on the inside of the prison usually don't have keys to the outside; They need to be let out by another guard. This way, if every guard is overpowered prisoners are still trapped in the prison.

The other issue this would help is the fact that supplies are delivered outside the prison. Lots of the prison's staff need to keep accessing the delivery and garbage areas constantly. This necessitates near constant guard intervention to keep opening the door. The electronic door can be expensive, and require dedicated monitoring similar to a CCTV. It's still a guard opening the door (remotely), but it doesn't waste time by having the guard run to the door to open it. For many doors throughout the prison, this is no big deal, but I find it is for the main door. In addition, an electronic door simulates a true airlock since the monitoring station can be outside the main prison complex. If all the guards and keys are compromised, they're still not getting through that door.

Again, for balance, the electronic door cost, power requirements, and monitoring overheard would provide a nice tradeoff for choosing whether to use more electronic doors throughout the prison. Chances are, you'd stick with conventional jail doors (as they exist now) for most areas. But the player can weigh those tradeoffs and make a decision. Perhaps they want to have electronic doors everywhere.

Designating who's allowed to pass through doors would be nice. I'd like to have visitors come in a certain way as well as staff etc. Perhaps I don't want staff to use a certain door. This would help the player fine tune the pathfinding and personnel flow. If this is implemented, there wouldn't be a need to spell out paths for each type to take, as was suggested earlier. This would leave the staff in a more dynamic environment and have them function more autonomously, which seems to be the main scope.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Thu Aug 01, 2013 10:48 pm

EDIT: I forgot to say I really like the front gate idea. I would very much like to move the deliveries area so prisoners do not always make a run for it when helping out in the kitchen.

As for concentration camp prisons, it's just a game. Who cares what mainstream media thinks?
christopher1006 wrote:It's an interesting idea to make the camp and see how it was to play as the commander but not many would really want to see the silent lines of children march into the gas chambers.

Not in real life, obviously, but in a game? Hell yeah, that'd be morbidly fascinating! (And I'm a woman.) I mean, you can play Adolf Hitler mods in all the Civilization games and no one gives a crap. Dwarf Fortress does that kind of stuff all the time, too, including the mermaid baby skull extractor machine that people have devised and improved upon time and time again. Shoving the mermaid parents down a chute after they breed and slamming the baby through a grate, so only it's bones are left, which are the most valuable objects in the game to make totem poles with is a DF classic... It's hilarious as hell! LOL

Looking at it another way, this could open up for different types of prisons, with brutal or evil methods of torture and death which could then have serious ramifications. Having protesters outside the gates, less government assistance and other political issues arising, dissatisfaction and mental problems amongst the staff... etc. Prison Architect doesn't necessarily have to be located in the US/UK or even the current modern time frame and I am looking forward to those types of modding options.
Last edited by Spectre Incarnate on Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dc4bs » Thu Aug 01, 2013 11:17 pm

My latest prison design uses 3 "main" doors...

The "North" door is immediately South of the kitchen and exits at the North end of the delivery area. It has 2 sets of staff only doors and then a double jail door. The 2 2x2 areas enclosed by the 3 sets of doors are staff only and a guard is deployed in the area next to the outer jail door. This gives a double airlock effect while only forcing the kitchen staff to pass 1 guard operated door (with the guard always right there for them). All food/kitchen items enter by this door. NOTE: I do not ever use prisoner workers in the kitchen and it is set staff only... Cooks cost a bit but are WELL worth the removal of the escaping prisoner headaches.

The Central door is a single 2x2 airlock set staff only with a double jail door on either side of a deployed guard. This door is at the south end of the delivery area and north end of the garbage dump. Almost all non-food/non kitchen appliance deliveries enter through this door.

Inside, between the 1st 2 doors is a 3 room building. The storage room is set staff only (except when a prisoner has to move a dismantled saw or press). Storage has staff doors next to the North and Central exits. The 2nd room in is the visitor area with the only door exiting South so all visitors use the Central doorway. The holding cell is 3rd with the door centered facing West - Incoming escorted prisoners may use the North or Central door. Whichever is faster.

Immediately South of the Central door is the factory complex (workshops). This allows for the fastest possible reasonably safe delivery of sheet metal by the workers. 4 16x16 rooms with 20 workers each. 2 rooms of 20 saws, 2 rooms of 20 presses and 1 10x33 room with 40 benches for storing the gold(en plates)... 100 prisoners and 15 or so workers can produce about $55-60k per day (EG: ~58k - 3k for sheet metal deliveries)

The South door below the factory complex is a double airlock with 1 guard assigned. 2 1x4 airlocks. This uses 3 jail doors (could be upgraded with isolation doors) and 1 posted guard in the outer lock. This exit is left gen-pop. It allows released prisoners to be let out SLOWLY in a controlled manner. Later in the game when plenty of guards are available I add a guard to the 2nd lock to speed up the process.

Workers rarely want to use this door and only when I'm doing new construction at the south end of the prison. Even then, they usually use the Central door as the interior concrete tile paths are faster than walking down the road... ;) The only areas South of the factory are the cleaning cupboard, offices] & CCTV monitor rooms and the yard so there is really no reason for much of any traffic at this entrance other than released prisoners. The guards draw lots to see who gets the kushy job.

-dc4bs
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Fri Aug 02, 2013 12:21 am

dc4bs wrote:NOTE: I do not ever use prisoner workers in the kitchen and it is set staff only... Cooks cost a bit but are WELL worth the removal of the escaping prisoner headaches.

That was a very descriptive set up (although I am unable to follow it without visuals) and it's all well and good to work that way, but how does this help the issue of wanting a front gate for such things as actually having prisoners help out in the kitchen?

And to add to that, I'm kind of wondering why there isn't a gated *area* for trucks to go into to drop supplies and prisoners off? With a gate house and a guard ouside the gate, checking on everything as the trucks come and go. Having them just sit on the side of the road is a little odd.
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Postby _alphaBeta_ » Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:23 pm

dc4bs wrote:My latest prison design uses 3 "main" doors...
...
[snip]
...
-dc4bs


That's a good idea to account for the staff pathfinding annoyances right now. Somehow it never occured to me to make it so the kitchen has easy access to the deliveries, but put it to the North or South so it doesn't interfere with prisoners coming in. :oops: I'll experiment with this for the next prison, thanks.

Eventually, I'd still like to be able to designate who can use what door. We're basically there with jail/staf/regular doors, but I guess in most cases I find myself wanting to restrict staff from certain doors, and force them to take another (probably longer) path.
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Postby Check Six » Fri Aug 02, 2013 3:53 pm

This is a great idea. It would also relieve the stress of seeing a prisoner stroll down the road, knowing that they had been released instead of an escape. The main gate would allow released prisoners to pass, but not currently serving prisoners. You could include a "trustee" pass, so that the kitchen working prisoners can access the front entrance, but as mentioned earlier, it's probably easier and safer to not allow prisoners out there at all.

dc4bs, that sounds like a really good system for controlling your entrance/exit/delivery area with separate canteen and workshop entrances, allowing for the main users of the delivery area to enter and exit quickly.

Is there any chance you could post a screenshot detailing the entry to your prison for us (with a bit of kitchen and workshop showing us how it works)?
Steve

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Postby MAdMaN » Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:44 pm

Check Six wrote:This is a great idea. It would also relieve the stress of seeing a prisoner stroll down the road, knowing that they had been released instead of an escape.

Chris'll be adding the prisoners changing into civilian clothes and getting picked up when released.
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Postby Check Six » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:20 pm

Madman,

Yes, I was aware of that. I am unsure of whether prisoners are released at various times during the day, or only at, say, 8AM (or 9AM - different time from the intake would be better). But whenever I see a prisoner strolling down the road, I worry. Certainly, after Chris develops the change of clothes and implements it, I will rest a lot better when I see people going for a walk down the road.
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Postby daniele01 » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:28 pm

The way I would run my prison based on door use is the following:

I would have a few guards in a security room at the far rear of the compound completely isolated being guarded by 4+ guards with 2 operatives. Where there's CCTV cameras in line of sight to a door the operator can open that door based on specific variables eg. security level, guard, admin or emergency services. The front gate would be opened by a operative again based on a set of variables but these would be slightly different Is there a guard escorting this person? Is there a breach of security if I open this door like a mass escape? It would also be cool if we found contraband on someone which originated by being smuggled in by a relative, in this case the opperator could know if the player had 'barred' this visitor and call guards to remove them from the prison. Emergency services would have one of their personnel, say the incident commander have a master set of keys however, it would be advised that this be a last resort and riot teams would also be called first.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:08 am

Check Six wrote:I am unsure of whether prisoners are released at various times during the day, or only at, say, 8AM (or 9AM - different time from the intake would be better). But whenever I see a prisoner strolling down the road, I worry.

Same here, but current patch notes for Alpha 12 say "Prisoners due for release within the next six hours are now listed on your todo list", so at least we will know a little ahead of time and not be so worried when we do see a guy running down the road... possibly naked. :lol:
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Postby Check Six » Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:42 pm

Sadly, I haven't spent much PA time on Alpha 12 (been working double shifts - but at least I can participate in this forum whilst at work), so I haven't yet witnessed any of these events.

sigh!
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