30$+ Price tag = No thanks

General chit-chat and minor questions about just about anything

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mik3k
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Postby mik3k » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:22 am

xander wrote:
mik3k wrote:I think it is a cop-out to say $30 keeps the great mass of undersireable gamers away.

No one from IV has made that statement. I believe that the official party line is that it keeps IV in business until they finish the game.

xander


"We want fewer people who are more involved," Chris Delay explained. "A smaller number of people who are really involved in the game and really want to contribute to the alpha process and really want to get stuck in; they want to post on the forums, they want to talk to us about their thoughts about the game. Rather than the mass, mainstream, millions of people that have paid 10 cents each who are actually immediately pissed off because the game doesn't work properly and they expect it to be finished already."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... -has-begun

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I truly wish them great Minecraft-like success with this. I read in another article that they would have been fine with 100 alpha preorders. Right now they are well over 2000 preorders and that is great.

My issue is keeping out the gamers that $30 is too steep for an alpha of a game that is missing features, has known bugs and broken features, and really the final game may be very different if they choose that. The story about "A smaller number of people who are really involved . . . " falls apart when the alpha is wide open to anyone willing to pay $30. That number could reach tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of people. It is not a tool to whilttle down the number of complaints and bug reports to a manageble number or they would cap the number of people allowed in the alpha.

Be honest and say it - We believe our game is worth (or will be worth) $30 when it is done. That is what we will charge and you can get in on the alpha early for that price or wait for the game.

Jeez, it sounds like I'm pissed at them and I am not. I paid the $30 for what I am sure will be a great game. I just want to voice for those people that cannot afford it (yes, there are actual real life people that $30 is too high) or the current indie market and even sales with AAA titles, that $30 is a lot of money for a single game. This is not Borderlands 2. This is not the great Dwarf Fortress.

And this is just my opinion.
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Postby Masochist » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:40 am

If you think $30 is too much...don't buy it and quit whining...jesus...

I simply see people that assume and expect an "indie" game to be $20 or less...no excuses...

ZOMG they chose $30 for various reasons over $20! they must be evil...might even be the next EA!

Get over yourselves, save some money and buy the game, or don't...but good lord quit whining like your entitled and $30 is in violation of your entitlement.


ALSO SO NO ONE MISSES IT....QUIT SAYING $30 IS TOO MUCH FOR AN ALPHA! THE $30 IS A PRE-ORDER OF THE FINISHED GAME! THE ALPHA ACCESS IS A FREE BONUS!
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Postby mik3k » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:54 am

Masochist wrote:If you think $30 is too much...don't buy it and quit whining...jesus...

I simply see people that assume and expect an "indie" game to be $20 or less...no excuses...

ZOMG they chose $30 for various reasons over $20! they must be evil...might even be the next EA!

Get over yourselves, save some money and buy the game, or don't...but good lord quit whining like your entitled and $30 is in violation of your entitlement.


ALSO SO NO ONE MISSES IT....QUIT SAYING $30 IS TOO MUCH FOR AN ALPHA! THE $30 IS A PRE-ORDER OF THE FINISHED GAME! THE ALPHA ACCESS IS A FREE BONUS!


$30 is too much. I bought it anyway. So you shut up. :evil:

This is called an opinion. I paid my money so I get one too. The rest of the stuff you decided to insert from your imagination, well that is your opinion.

I paid for the alpha - If this was a preorder and they decided not to finish the game would I get my money back? NO. This is paying for an alpha.

Edit - Actually, watch the prison architect site. Right now it just says preorders. After a few canceled preorders and refunds, I'll bet by the time this hits beta, and possibly before, that the wording is added that you are buying the game in the current state with no guarantee of any future updates. Minecraft went through this same thing. It is legalise to protect themselves and that's when people will realize they are buying the alpha. Of course the hard core supporters will change their arguments to whatever fits the occasion.
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Postby Illanair » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:31 am

And ironically such legal loopholes only work in parts of the world - The EU have protection from such ludicrous attempts at bypassing basic salesman/customer loopholes.

You've shared your opinion that you find it too expensive - you may leave now.
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Postby a__gun » Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:47 am

I really don't understand peoples issues. If you would pay $30 for the full game, why would you pay any less for what is in its most basic form a pre-order with a demo and extra goodies? If you wouldn't pay $30 for the full game, then you wouldn't pay $30 for the full game, that's fine, but we don;t need you in here moaning about it and essentially calling IV greedy bastards.
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Postby hassifa » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:17 pm

I like to think of this as a kickstarter project that is already under development. Sure the pricing starts of at $30, but being able to play and help steer the development of the game to me is worth the extra $$$, instead of waiting for it to be offically released and perhaps to pay a lesser cost.
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Postby estel » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:27 pm

mik3k wrote:Edit - Actually, watch the prison architect site. Right now it just says preorders. After a few canceled preorders and refunds, I'll bet by the time this hits beta, and possibly before, that the wording is added that you are buying the game in the current state with no guarantee of any future updates. Minecraft went through this same thing. It is legalise to protect themselves and that's when people will realize they are buying the alpha. Of course the hard core supporters will change their arguments to whatever fits the occasion.


I don't think it's a matter of legalising it as much as making it so that Paypal don't slap them down and close their account - it's against the Paypal TOS to accept money for preorders.
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Postby Illanair » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:31 pm

estel wrote:
mik3k wrote:I don't think it's a matter of legalising it as much as making it so that Paypal don't slap them down and close their account - it's against the Paypal TOS to accept money for preorders.


In that case they'd be incredibly busy taking down tens of thousands kickstarter project contributers. And I know of at least 20 etailers that allow Paypal for Pre-Orders. I think you need to back up that argument with sources - I can't find anything on the subject suggesting it is against their Terms.
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Postby Mas Tnega » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:32 pm

a__gun wrote:I really don't understand peoples issues. If you would pay $30 for the full game, why would you pay any less for what is in its most basic form a pre-order with a demo and extra goodies?
It's an extremely advanced pre-order. The alpha is more incentive to pay for it so far ahead of time. Using the alpha in the manner Chris explicitly intended is basically work.

I can see why people would lower their valuation of what's on offer.
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Postby estel » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:41 pm

Illanair wrote:
estel wrote:
mik3k wrote:I don't think it's a matter of legalising it as much as making it so that Paypal don't slap them down and close their account - it's against the Paypal TOS to accept money for preorders.


In that case they'd be incredibly busy taking down tens of thousands kickstarter project contributers. And I know of at least 20 etailers that allow Paypal for Pre-Orders. I think you need to back up that argument with sources - I can't find anything on the subject suggesting it is against their Terms.


There's a whole web of stuff, but the most obvious parallel is Xenonauts: RPS on Xenonauts (in particular, the comments from Chris England, their original blog post was lost when their new site was placed online)

The reason (for Paypal) makes sense: because of far vaguer criteria for successful order fulfilment, preorders are potentially vulnerable to a much higher number of chargeback claims that a scammer can reasonably justify (I made this preorder, haven't received the product yet, please give me the refund), even if they've taken advantage of the free bonuses for doing so (the alpha).
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Postby Illanair » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:05 pm

That article has nothing on the topic of not allowing pre-orders. All it does is show that the Xenonaut developers didn't properly negotiate having a large scale account properly with Paypal. Paypal have a right to freeze accounts which are investigated for fraud or other suspicious transactions.

Baseline : Want to do large scale business via any in-direct 3rd party solution? Communicate - Kickstarter projects are only "whitelisted" on Amazon because Kickstarter have already made the necessary agreements.
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Postby Habardeen » Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:36 pm

It's a very high price compared to other similar campaigns.
If they did it to prevent mass complaining, they could have simply granted forum access only to those willing to pay high enough for it.

Oh. I am a fan and I paid what they are asking.
I'm not complaining, but those who wanted lower tiers should, in my opinion, be able to support this game the way they can. And it's not just for "being fair" or anything like that at all, but for the simple truth that with more money the game will build up much better. Everyone would benefit.

Perhaps when IV will have a more stable and bug-free build they will add more tiers, rewarding the early birds somehow ; )
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Postby Onslow » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:10 pm

xander wrote:
Onslow wrote:I do intend to wait until the price comes down or I can afford it, like you suggest. But in the meantime I don't feel like I'm robbing Introversion of a sale by torrenting it if I can't afford to buy it anyway.

That is not waiting until you can afford it. That is pirating the game, full stop. Retroactively paying for something (assuming that you ever do pay for it) after you have obtained it illegally does not negate the original violation. Waiting until you can afford it would entail NOT PLAYING it until you could afford it. That's what "waiting" means.

xander


It looks like you're having some real difficulty comprehending my posts. I am waiting to buy this game. I have pirated it already. I've really enjoyed what I've played and whereas before I would have just paid $30 to access the game now I am convinced that I want to have my name in it and am willing to fork out the $50 once I have it. Piracy is not theft. Piracy is free advertising. There are heaps of studies to this effect that I will dig out for you that support this argument and I will dig them out for you if you really care. Don't let the copyright industries convince you that it's immoral to share to an idea - it's doublethink of the worst kind.

I also agree that disposable income is a very poor way to gauge a players commitment to testing the product.
Last edited by Onslow on Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby estel » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:10 pm

Illanair wrote:That article has nothing on the topic of not allowing pre-orders. All it does is show that the Xenonaut developers didn't properly negotiate having a large scale account properly with Paypal. Paypal have a right to freeze accounts which are investigated for fraud or other suspicious transactions.

Baseline : Want to do large scale business via any in-direct 3rd party solution? Communicate - Kickstarter projects are only "whitelisted" on Amazon because Kickstarter have already made the necessary agreements.



The linked Xenonauts blog post was entitled "Pre-orders are a scam according to Paypal" and in the comments Chris wrote:

The reason it’s frustrating is we were initially told that we couldn’t accept pre-orders on the site, but selling a one-off forum subscription with a free game was fine by them. Hence surprise when they asked for more information on the account 12 months later and then locked us when we gave the same explanation.


That is definitely to do with pre-orders.

That is, of course, not to say that communication isn't the most key element in any such business arrangement, but Paypal are not the world's greatest payment processor and their scale often results in their processes being followed blindly and communication difficult. There are enough horror stories involving Paypal acting unreasonably that I can't envisage using them as a merchant ever.
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Postby Illanair » Mon Oct 01, 2012 5:48 pm

estel wrote:
Illanair wrote:That article has nothing on the topic of not allowing pre-orders. All it does is show that the Xenonaut developers didn't properly negotiate having a large scale account properly with Paypal. Paypal have a right to freeze accounts which are investigated for fraud or other suspicious transactions.

Baseline : Want to do large scale business via any in-direct 3rd party solution? Communicate - Kickstarter projects are only "whitelisted" on Amazon because Kickstarter have already made the necessary agreements.



The linked Xenonauts blog post was entitled "Pre-orders are a scam according to Paypal" and in the comments Chris wrote:

The reason it’s frustrating is we were initially told that we couldn’t accept pre-orders on the site, but selling a one-off forum subscription with a free game was fine by them. Hence surprise when they asked for more information on the account 12 months later and then locked us when we gave the same explanation.


That is definitely to do with pre-orders.

That is, of course, not to say that communication isn't the most key element in any such business arrangement, but Paypal are not the world's greatest payment processor and their scale often results in their processes being followed blindly and communication difficult. There are enough horror stories involving Paypal acting unreasonably that I can't envisage using them as a merchant ever.


...actually it was titled "Enemy Known: Xenonauts vs Paypal".

And as you could have read it properly and realized I was talking about the Paypal TOS and Pre-Orders as a thing in general, not specific to Xenonauts - a topic the blog never commented upon, or even attempted to get sources on.

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