Media Bias against Israel

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The cat
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Postby The cat » Sat May 15, 2004 3:36 pm

Allright, first off its spelled Martyrs.

You said you don't want to take the debate to such a low level... Don't
act like you're an English pro because you aren't.

But there are fundamentalists on the Israeli too, that move to
Israel out of religous zeal, and that wants to live in the "holy land
given to them by god" blah blah etc etc

No, they came here for ideological reasons, which are legit. Israel is
a liberal country, therefore- we have the freedom of religion so every
Jewish can come here simply because his ideology says so without being
called: "fundamentalist".
The Palestinains claim for this land also because of sort of
ideological beliefs, so in the same way you can't call them all:
"fundamentalists", do you?


Yes, go on.. Spell it out please and prove my earlier point,
call me an anit-semite. Thats what Israelis usually do when you critisize
them, their culture of violence, their religon, Isreal's policies etc
etc etc..

And yet I can't find your defence here... Your fear of being called
"anti semitist" stops you?

But you are quick to judge both arab culture, Islam and the
palestinan cause.. And nobody is calling you a racist for that unless you
are a zionist.

Nope, none of us ever said we are better in any way. In my opinion they
need to judge themselves to see what damage they are causing... And we
don't really judge them here, we just analyze them- which is fine!
:roll:

Or that you dont trust my sources on this, you dont really need
any sources, you only need to know the policy of the group that was
involved in the Sabra & Shatila massacre(and they did know their policy)

We are not discussing of an act that has nothing to do with our current
crisis. However, we have not reason to trust something we don't know
from you as long as we don't get sources\proves.
"Also, many unrelated eye witnesses have said Israeli troops
participated in the massacres."

These facts are historically not true, what else can I add?
BTW Insults wont do you no good or make me sad

Shit... :twisted:

This has been explained allready, by both me and
Stewsburntmonkey. Lets move on.

No, I don't think there was an agreement here.
"First of all, how is this racist? Zionism is a political
movement among Jews holding that the Jewish people constitute a nation and
are entitled to a national homeland. How's this different from Americans
before they won British? NOWHERE it says that only jews can live in
Israel.

What do you think of that? How can you claim for a Palestinian state
when you don't recognize our right to build our homeland in the holy land
("blah, blah")?

Yeah, the reason is probably that you have to build security
barriers and security zones there to keep out the terrorism you are
feeding.

No, the reason he is talking about his that we destroy the houses of
suicide bombers after their acts. If someone wants to bomb himself he
should probably know that his family will lost its house. Sad but true.

So.. What makes your muslim friends more reliable on this than
mine?

He just said he believes he had more diversified friend. In fact, I
think it doesn't really matter. If you want to know the real face of the
fundamentalist arab world you should go 10 minutes from my house and see
a bombed restaurant with an andante to the 17 people that were killed
there. BTW, the irony is that all the restaurants that were bombed in my
city are hold by Israeli-arabs... :?

Of course there are *some* good Israelis

So what are the "bad" ISraelis? :wink: This childish point of view
could be really cute if it wasn't so serious.

An israeli ambassador Zvi Mazel, after destroying a piece of
art, he refuses to leave the museum and calling people who tries to ask
him POLITELY to leave for anti-semites and caliming they are supportin
"mass murder of jews".. It needs to be said that the author of this piece
of art was jewish..

If a "piece of art" offends somebody, it should not be presented-
especially when it refers to the Israeli-Palestinian crisis.
The "piece of art" showed a pool of blood, and a boat, under the
caption of "cinderella" floating on top of the blood with the picture of the
female suicide bomber who murdered 20 Israelis, 4 of them under were
the age of 12, including 2 babies, while having dinner in a restaurant in
Haifa- my city. I know a family who lost 5 people in that attack.
And about the "artist": He is an extremist left-winged person who has a
sympathy to the Palestinian side. He he is Israeli anymore. He
presented his "art" in a disgusting way. He is not marry to a Jewish woman, he
lost his Jewish roots, he talks against Israel, and perhaps he is not
Anti-semitist, but he is obviously anti-Israeli!

Arafat has no real power

His organization has no real power because the streets follow the
extremist way of the terrorism organizations, but he is a powerful
personality there.

What has arafat to do with this, dont give me that "he controls
the terrorist organisations" bullshit, because we both know that isnt
true.

No, we don't!
Here are quotes from his speeches to his people:

"They [Palestinian rioters] will fight for Allah, and they will kill
and be killed, and this is a solemn oath. . . . Our blood is cheap
compared with the cause which has brought us together and which at moments
separated us, but shortly we will meet again in heaven... Palestine is
our land and Jerusalem is our capital.
- Yassir Arafat, quoted in Arafat and the Uses of Terror, Commentary
Magazine, by Jonathan Torop, a Soref research fellow at the Washington
Institute for Near East Policy.

The sheer number of jihad speeches given by Arafat since the signing of
Oslo I in September 1993 is nothing short of astonishing. One of the
most notorious occurred at a mosque in South Africa in 1994. During an
event closed to the media, the chairman proclaimed:


"The jihad will continue. . . . You have to understand our main battle
is Jerusalem... You have to come and fight a jihad to liberate
Jerusalem, your precious shrine. . . . No, it is not their capital. It is our
capital.
"Arafat echoed the South Africa speech literally dozens of times in
1995 and 1996. On June 19, 1995, he was filmed at Al-Azhar University in
Gaza:


"We are all seekers of martyrdom in the path of truth and right toward
Jerusalem, the capital of the state of Palestine. The commitment stands
and the oath is firm to continue this long and arduous jihad in the
path of martyrdom and sacrifices. . . . The commitment still stands and
the oath is still firm to continue this difficult jihad, this long jihad,
this arduous jihad in the path of martyrs, the path of sacrifices, but
this is a path of victory and glory.
Shortly after the violence committed by PA police in September 1996,
Arafat announced again:


"We will be willing to die as martyrs until our flag flies over
Jerusalem. No one should believe they can frighten us with weapons. We have
much stronger weapons, the weapon of belief, the weapon of sacrifice, the
weapon of jihad. . . . We shall continue the jihad, the long jihad, a
complex jihad, a jihad of attrition, of holy death. Warfare is our only
way to victory. The path of glory, the path of jihad."
[- Yassir Arafat, quoted in Arafat and the Uses of Terror, Commentary
Magazine, by Jonathan Torop, a Soref research fellow at the Washington
Institute for Near East Policy.]

Yasser Arafat: "I am willing to sacrifice 70 to die to kill 1
Israeli"

In a fiery speech in Ramallah today, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat
called for more martyrdom, reportedly saying: "I am willing to sacrifice
70 to die to kill one Israeli."

Israel Radio West Bank correspondent Avi Yissakharov reported Arafat
declared "all Palestinians are Muhammad al-Dura," that all Palestinians
are martyrs. Al-Dura was a 12-year-old boy killed in the Gaza Strip last
year while his father tried to protect him from crossfire between
Palestinian snipers and Israeli Defense Forces.

Arafat called for all to join in the struggle to stop what he termed
the Israeli program to Judaize Jerusalem.

The crowd roared back to Arafat, "Millions of martyrs are already
marching to Jerusalem."

Israel Television Channel Two reported this evening that Arafat also
told the crowd, "I am willing to sacrifice 70 martyrs to kill one
Israeli" and called for a continuation of the struggle against Israel.

Arafat's fiery rhetoric in Arabic stands in stark contrast to his more
conciliatory statements in English in which he has agreed to stop
attacks on Israelis.


******************************************************************************


Palestinans are a PEOPLE. They dont need a nation for that
really, the kurds are a people too and they dont have a nation either.
Also, who that has a nation or not is pretty much decided by the
majority of the world's countries. Some arab countries dont acknowledge the
existance of Israel and if most countries in the world wouldnt, your
country would no longer be deemed to exist.
Sayin "they are just arabs" is just a way to make their claims to some
of the land look less legit.

The term "Palestinian" is itself a masterful twisting of history. To
portray themselves as indigenous, Arab settlers adopted the name of an
ancient Canaanite tribe, the Phillistines, that died out almost 3000
years ago. The connection between this tribe and modern day Arabs is nil.
Who is to know the difference? Given the absence of any historical
record, one can understand why Yasser Arafat claims that Jesus Christ, a
Jewish carpenter from the Galilee, was a Palestinian. Every year, at
Christmas time, Arafat goes to Bethlehem and tells worshippers that Jesus
was in fact "the first Palestinian".

OK, enough for one day, my fingers are tired... :cry:
The cat
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Postby The cat » Sat May 15, 2004 5:36 pm

And I also want to make a point about "good" and "bad" Israelis.
There are no such things. There are right-winged and left-winged.

By the way, the left-winged isn't a weak minority. In fact, although they don't rule the country, they struggle in the Opposition, and today they organize a big protest in Tel-Aviv. 110,000 people will come to protest for the evacuation from Gaza.

I can support them or not, it doesn't matter- nothing can make me "bad" as long as I don't shoot any arab I see in the street, and I see many.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat May 15, 2004 6:53 pm

First I am going to address the origin of Palastinians question. The cat, your arguements are are based in Israeli and Zionist propaganda. There is a push to use these arguements to discredit the claim of the Palastinians to the land. However this is a weak and silly claim for several reasons. One few Isrealis can claim any tie to the land. Most are immegrants so there is a good deal of hypocracy in calling Palastinians not native when most of the Israelis would still have come after them if your claims were true. Second, most experts believe that the majority of the Palastinians are in actual fact decendants of the of the Caananite peoples. The Arab invasion seems to be only a cultural one, so while the culture changed the people and the blood remained the same. Most recently some genetic testing on Palastinians and Israelis has shown that the two groups are more simular to each other than to either Arabs or Europeans, so there seems to be a good deal to support the Palastinians heritage.

There are good and bad people of every race and nationality. . .

Censorship of art is stupid. The most recent case of such acts is from the Taliban, not a parallel Israel should seek. Offensive images and ideas should not be hidden and covered up. They should be confronted and examined. This of course is much harder, but it will lead to the preservation of democracy and freedom where as censorship is a downward spiral of oppression.

This actually goes back to the original topic. Censorship deprives people of information and in doing so inslaves their mind to the oppressors way of thinking. It is a very dangerous situation and cannot be tollerated. However the Arab nations are just as guilty (if not more so) of this type of actions, and they should be addressed as well.

The word anti-Semite is thrown around far too much. It is used my some Jews to end arguements they are loosing and can't win legitimately. It is like those people who see everything as racists or the Arabs who see everything as a Wester conspiracy agaisnt them. It is a shallow and stupid way of thinking and arguing which should be refrained from by everyone.

Again collective punishment it amoral and against numerous International Laws. I think it is poor taste to accuse someone of terrorism and then engage in it yourself. Again there is hypocracy on both sides which must be addressed.


Almost all religions claim to be better than all others. Otherwise what is to make people worship in that religion. Muslims see infidels as inferior, Christians see non-Christians as on the wrong path, etc. There is nothing unique about the Jewish claim of supremacy.

As I have said we can all pull up specific instances of improper action and atrocity by either side, it gets us no where.

I think calling Israelis total idiots is out of line. Certainly there are many arrogant self-righteous Israelis out there, but there are plenty of arrogant, selfrighteous Muslims and Americans out there too.
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Postby Insider » Sun May 23, 2004 11:44 am

I didn't expect to find such discussion on this forum , anyway , This thread IS SOOO LONG I wanted to comment on every single post,but It seems to be tough job.

I'll start off by Commenting on something "cat" talked about

The cat said:
An israeli ambassador Zvi Mazel, after destroying a piece of
art, he refuses to leave the museum and calling people who tries to ask
him POLITELY to leave for anti-semites and caliming they are supportin
"mass murder of jews".. It needs to be said that the author of this piece
of art was jewish..

An israeli ambassador Zvi Mazel, after destroying a piece of
art, he refuses to leave the museum and calling people who tries to ask
him POLITELY to leave for anti-semites and caliming they are supportin
"mass murder of jews".. It needs to be said that the author of this piece
of art was jewish..


If the ambassador found it so offensive he could've come up with a MORE civilized way of dealing with the situation (e.g. Using the HUGE israeli influence),I think what he did orginated from the inflated feeling israeli officals have that they are above the law knowing that nobody can condemn such irresponsible action.. WHY? because if they do so they're simply anti-Semites (which seems too scary for everybody :? )
I think what the Israeli ambassador did is the pure definition of arrogance.
This incident is but another evidence proving that Israel never had any respect to laws ,History abounds with such incidents and when I say history I'm talking about the NON-faked one ,could you please remind me of HOW MUCH Laws and treaties did Israel break or violate?!
And please don't try to say Israel is a law-respecting country,I think it's Crystal-clear it isn't,not even close (I can easily prove it).
Before defending israeli Actions I think you first need to prove Israel as a Law-respecting country,or else you would be just like defending .... a criminal :twisted: ?.
I hope I made my point clear. :idea:
The cat
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Postby The cat » Sun May 23, 2004 12:27 pm

Well, as an ambassador, he wasn't so polite because his job as a representer is to show the Israeli side in the best way.
But still, as an Israeli citizen, he commited the right thing.
I think what he did orginated from the inflated feeling israeli officals have that they are above the law knowing that nobody can condemn such irresponsible action..

No, it has nothing to do with Israeli feelings, since you don't know them, and since you inflate them too much in a wrong way.
He felt as an Israeli that the "art" offends the families of the victims, and justifies the suicide attack. I myself was offended because the attack the "artist" was pointing at happened in my city, and I know many victims from there, and his way to justify the act worries me.

You say Israel abuses its influence in Europe? What influence exactly do we have there?
You say you can explain your points if you want to, me either...If I want to. :D

Before defending israeli Actions I think you first need to prove Israel as a Law-respecting country

Israel does anything it can to defend its civilians, and we all see and feel it. About the legality of the acts- Every act Israel commits is another story, you cannot make any generalizations here since it's impossible. Defence is legit, even if sometimes, unfortunately, it has to appear as an attack.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun May 23, 2004 5:04 pm

The Nazis portrayed the Holocaust as an act of national defense. You can claim anything is in national defense, to allow that to be a valid excuse for any and all action is amazingly irresponcible and dangerous. By your statements you say that the Holocaust was legit since it could be claimed as a defensive action, that is obviously absurd. This would also make suicide bombings and the numerous Arab attacks on Israel legit as well.

When you form opinions about your own actions it is always best to apply those opinions to your enemy's actions. Manytimes you will find that the things you are able to excuse in your own actions are things you strongly condemn when done by your enemy. If that is the case then you have to reformulate your opinions either about your own actions or your enemy's actions.
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Postby The cat » Sun May 23, 2004 5:16 pm

The Nazis portrayed the Holocaust as an act of national defense. You can claim anything is in national defense...

That's obviously the way the German nation saw the holocaust, they saw it as a war of survival. That's why they tried so hard to eliminate as much Jews as possible. There were days when 100,000 died in just one camp.
There is still a difference since Israel is directly threatened by the Islamic terror and its attacks. The garmans felt threatened economicly because Hitler used a sophisticated propaganda to convince its people that the Germans will live better without Jewish people, who by the way, developed the economy...

If that is the case then you have to reformulate your opinions either about your own actions or your enemy's actions.

It's just a matter of speech... :wink:
I am aware to their suffer which is caused mostly by our defence, and frankly- i'm worried and it hurts to me to see that people get harmed because the stupidity of other's people. However, if the army sees something necessary, it has reason to think so, and I give full trust to those who defend the country even in enemy lines.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun May 23, 2004 5:20 pm

Heh, do you realise how much you sound like German civilians during the Holocaust. Its actually rather frightening.
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Postby Rkiver » Sun May 23, 2004 5:20 pm

The cat: While I cannot comment fully on the situation in that area as I have not been there myself, I can only form the opinion that you, like all sides in a conflict such as this, are a victim of your own propaganda, just as many in the USA are at the moment regarding the so called "War on Terror".

Your army are "defending" the country, while they are also killing people who really want nothing to do with the conflict, and so are the other side in this. Both sides are guilty, and until both sides decide to remove the idiots in charge, and actively hunt down those who are doing the killing, more lives will be lost. At least that is the way I see it. I feel sorry for those who have lost loved ones, I feel pity for those who believe that a suicide bomber is a good thing, and I feel nothing but contempt for those who lead and encourage the killing.
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Postby The cat » Sun May 23, 2004 5:35 pm

Heh, do you realise how much you sound like German civilians during the Holocaust. Its actually rather frightening.


Really? I wanna know why, because I want to fix any defect of my mind and see what mistakes am I doing by my statements which can sound scary if they are...


Your army are "defending" the country, while they are also killing people who really want nothing to do with the conflict

Unfortunately defence against terror sometimes needs to be attack especially when you need to stop attacks, AND avoid them. It's necessary to avoid attacks when you have an intelligence. IDF never uses attack without being sure what are the targets. Yes, innocent people get killed although they are a small percent of the kills. It's really sad to me, especially when I know how important is to show the real Israeli intents in the world.

Basically I agree with most of the things Rkiver says here.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun May 23, 2004 5:51 pm

The problem is you seem to have a relatively blind faith in the government and military. Democracy is based on constant questioning of the leadership. If the citizens fail to question their leaders then the democracy is failing. You can see this happening in both Israel and in the US. Here in the US President Bush constantly says that questioning of his leadership is unpatriotic and has used various thugish methods to attack his strongest critics. In Israel there is an atmosphere of nationalism which makes opposition largely taboo. WWI and WWII were both largely fueled by such nationalistic sentaments. To see nationalism making a comeback is a rather scarry thing. It has killed millions and now it is back for more.

You cannot assume that the government has good and just reasons for its actions. You cannot assume the military is good and virtuous. You cannot assume media outlets are presenting the full or true picture. You cannot take what is given to you with out careful examination. In computer science when you are writing a program you have to check any data that gets inputed into your program no matter where it comes from (even if it is from another of your programs). Otherwise you run the risk of trusting bad data, which is what leads to all these security holes we are all so annoyed by. The same type of scrutiny must be applied life in general. While you should aviod being paranoid you should exercise as Prof. Moody says "Constant vigilance!" People will take advantage of your trusting nature if they can.
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Postby The cat » Sun May 23, 2004 8:49 pm

Well, you're right about what you say: the population should criticize the government and the army- especially the opposition.

However, if I don't find defects in the system I don't have to criticize it.

In Israel there is an atmosphere of nationalism which makes opposition largely taboo.

No, no, I don't think so. The opposition here is strong enough. It can't be the largest force in the Knesset, but it does have a big influence on the parliament and the citizens. There is no atmosphere of nationalism as good as I feel, there is a healthy atmosphere which is normal for a country with many problems and many disagreements between its citizens. The big protest lest week (150,000 people) proves so.

You cannot assume that the government has good and just reasons for its actions. You cannot assume the military is good and virtuous.

Of course there can't be a full trust in a country such as Israel. The madia here criticizes every politician, and mostly it's very hilarious. We DO need to check everything and make sure it's the best for our security and life. In my opinion, the army does the best to protect me, therefore- I trust the army and I show solidarity to the soldiers. But there will never be a blind trust which will lead me to a blind mind and to ignorance.
If this the way a healthy democracy works- I will live by this way, because democracy is what keeps us united here although the difficulties and the MANY disagreements.
I don't know a country with so many different opinions, the only taboo I know is a limitation of the political rights.

P.s: Sometimes I can't even trust myself. Especially when it comes to math tests... :shock:
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sun May 23, 2004 9:24 pm

Israel has a history of presenting a picture of democratic government and freedom of ideas, but it also has a history of using less than virtuous methods to make sure the political majority remains just as it is. I am not saying it is totally corrupt or anything like that, but if you look at the actions that have been taken it is quite scarry. And to deny Israeli nationalism is just silly. The country is built on nationalism.
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Postby HairDryer » Mon May 24, 2004 10:24 am

The Cat:
It's nice to stand up for your country and present a well rounded argument (if somewhat biased) but i have to agree with stews about the fact that if a nation isn't questioning their government then it is obviously either stupid and blind to what it is doing due, or afraid to voice there concerns about for fear of what the government will do to them. Again being blind to the government is usually due to government cencorship and propaganda.
Obviously neither situation is desirable therefore constant argument and changing of government is much better than a government that keeps the peoples trust with fear OR propaganda.

the cat wrote:I trust the army and I show solidarity to the soldiers. But there will never be a blind trust which will lead me to a blind mind and to ignorance


How can you say that you believe in democracy (as stews said a system which thrives on the questioning of it's leaders) etc but trust your army? An outlet controlled by the government.
Put simply you cannot trust the army if you do not trust your government.
If the government ordered the army to burn your house or anyone else's house im pretty sure that it would likely happen wouldn't it?
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Postby Insider » Mon May 24, 2004 4:12 pm

Cat said:
Defence is legit, even if sometimes, unfortunately, it has to appear as an attack.

I STRONGLY AGREE WITH YOU that Defence is Legit.

But let's try to define Defence :?:

Defence is -and correct me if I'm wrong- when you fight back a force that is trying to take what is ((YOURS))


Everybody knows that the creation of Israel was in 1948.
Israel grown larger since that time,how did that happen?
Israel took land by force
Fighting for land that was owned by force cannot be called defence,
Or I think then the GERMANS were DEFENDING their LAND in France from the TERRORISTS of the french resistance in World War II :shock:
what brought this conflict is the Constant Israel violation to the laws and treaties
I'm not asking Israel to return to the 1948 land and leave everything,I just hope if they can stop killing people under the False sign of SELF-DEFENCE
Israel can simply stop all kinds of violence by just complying to the laws,HOW HARD IS THAT?

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