Weekly Poll, police shooting

[Jordy...]

Well, practically, considering police work, that would mean enough authority to be sufficient under normal circumstances. Might extra
force/authority be needed then there should be a smaller-sized back-up option.

[Xocrates]

There are more than two options here; there is also the possibility that you have an irrational fear.

Nitpicker

Though I wonder what kind of people would be irrationally afraid of police power.

[Ace Rimmer]

b) Because I don't trust individual police officers, nor their orders or training.

That sounds suspisiously close to an irrational fear.

My point wasn't to nitpick, rather to show that your statement (surely unintentionally) placed all responsiblity on the police for 'your' fear of them due to corruption, abuse of power, and/or too much power, when it may simply be 'you' that is wrong in the fear. ('you' being any individual)

[Xocrates]

Police officers, pretty fucking scary too, and, having been beaten for peaceful protest, I don't trust them with batons, let alone weapons.

This seems like a pretty rational reason for that fear

Also: You being right or not in the fear is irrelevant. All that matters is that you feel you're justified in not trusting them.

Granted, one person doing this is paranoia, but if it's widespread then it's a symptom of deeper problems.

[Jordy...]

Btw, who is the racist here? It wasn't me, so come forward whoever was dumb enough to fall into my cunningly placed trap.

[Ace Rimmer]

Police officers, pretty fucking scary too, and, having been beaten for peaceful protest, I don't trust them with batons, let alone weapons.

This seems like a pretty rational reason for that fear

Also: You being right or not in the fear is irrelevant. All that matters is that you feel you're justified in not trusting them.

Granted, one person doing this is paranoia, but if it's widespread then it's a symptom of deeper problems.

First, we don't know the story or both sides of it; who knows what Cooper42 defines a 'peaceful protest'. ;p Therefore, 'seems like' is just that, an assumption.

I don't belive it's irrelevant. This is what's scary (emphasis mine, obviously): All that matters is that you feel you're justified in not trusting them.

Take Oslo as an example. Should Norwegians now fear the police because of one man? If they do as a group, is that now a symptom of a deeper problem with the police there?

Just being an antagonist, partly for fun and partly to keep the 'debate' honest.

[Xocrates]

I don't belive it's irrelevant. This is what's scary (emphasis mine, obviously): All that matters is that you feel you're justified in not trusting them.

Take Oslo as an example. Should Norwegians now fear the police because of one man? If they do as a group, is that now a symptom of a deeper problem with the police there?

Two things:

1) I never mentioned at any point that this lack of trust is exclusively due to a problem with the Police. I keep referring to social issues because lack of trust in the police (and authority in general) is a symptom that the populace feels insecure even if the police is doing its job perfectly

2) Like I said, one person is paranoia, and it only is a symptom of a problem if it is widespread. Even disregarding the fact that the Norway shootings weren't caused by a police man (though he was disguised as one), if it did cause Norwegians to fear the police in general then yes, there would be a problem, much in the same way that it was (is?) a problem that the general populace in the western world turned on muslims after 9-11

Just being an antagonist, partly for fun and partly to keep the 'debate' honest.

And I appreciate it been quite bored recently.

[Ace Rimmer]

1) I never mentioned at any point that this lack of trust is exclusively due to a problem with the Police. I keep referring to social issues because lack of trust in the police (and authority in general) is a symptom that the populace feels insecure even if the police is doing its job perfectly

And I never said you did, I pointed to the fact that your statements may be taken as though you are implying it (unintentionally). If the police did it's job perfectly and the populace doesn't trust and/or fears the police (assuming in this case the police haven't stepped over appropriate boundaries for a civilized and free society), then the problem is indeed with the populace.

2) Like I said, one person is paranoia, and it only is a symptom of a problem if it is widespread. Even disregarding the fact that the Norway shootings weren't caused by a police man (though he was disguised as one), if it did cause Norwegians to fear the police in general then yes, there would be a problem, much in the same way that it was (is?) a problem that the general populace in the western world turned on muslims after 9-11

There is a huge (HUGE!) difference between police, which are a recognized force for law and order in many of the countries we are from (if not all), and muslims which are Not a force for law and order in and of themselves. That analogy isn't really valid in the context of our discussion, in my opinion, although I see the point you're trying to make (I just disagree with the how).

[Feud]

Guns, they're pretty fucking scary.

Not so, good sir, not so!

Guns are incredibly useful, AND entertaining. Scary? Hardly.

Police officers, pretty fucking scary too, and, having been beaten for peaceful protest, I don't trust them with batons, let alone weapons.

I suppose that depends on the locale (there are some "police" departments that are called such but which have little in common with western police practices, some which do abuse power, etc). I've never had reason to fear the police in America, and I don't find them at all scary. I did get harassed once by a cop because of my religion, but I thought that was more funny than anything else.

As for the protest, can't really comment on it. Don't know the agency involved, don't know the scope of the protest, nor how peaceful it was or wasn't.

[Xocrates]

2) Like I said, one person is paranoia, and it only is a symptom of a problem if it is widespread. Even disregarding the fact that the Norway shootings weren't caused by a police man (though he was disguised as one), if it did cause Norwegians to fear the police in general then yes, there would be a problem, much in the same way that it was (is?) a problem that the general populace in the western world turned on muslims after 9-11

There is a huge (HUGE!) difference between police, which are a recognized force for law and order in many of the countries we are from (if not all), and muslims which are Not a force for law and order in and of themselves. That analogy isn't really valid in the context of our discussion, in my opinion, although I see the point you're trying to make (I just disagree with the how).

I don't see why the analogy isn't valid. The causes and end results are different, yes, (mistrust of people dressed as police while reasonably still trusting the police Vs mistrust of other members of the same group) but it doesn't change the fact that they're both problems.

Guns are incredibly useful, AND entertaining. Scary? Hardly.

Guns are usually designed to kill or maim, regardless of whether or not they're used for that. Many people find that scary, particularly if they don't know how to handle them.

[Feud]

Guns are usually designed to kill or maim, regardless of whether or not they're used for that. Many people find that scary, particularly if they don't know how to handle them.

I realize that they do, but I don't understand the fear behind it. Lots of things can kill or maim you, with many of them being much more likely to do so.

As you say though, such fear seems to be very prevalent amongst those with the least experience in them. I guess it's like many other things in life, tolerance (and acceptance) often reflects exposure. Having been to many shooting ranges where a person who's scared of guns upon arrival leaves with a grin on their face and a desire to return, I'm a firm believer in the power of hands on experience's power to convert.

[Xocrates]

I realize that they do, but I don't understand the fear behind it. Lots of things can kill or maim you, with many of them being much more likely to do so.

You know, I almost included a response to this in my previous post since I was expecting this argument.

But yes, while lots of common items can maim and kill you, and some are more likely to do so than guns, keep in mind that they weren't designed specifically for it.

However I agree that familiarity plays a huge role in it.

[xander]

That assumes that the Police force has power over the law abiding citizen. If you've done nothing wrong there is nothing the police should be able to do to you.

The Police should have enough power to deal with disturbances, but from the moment on that you're afraid of their power it means that either they are corrupt and abusing power they shouldn't actually have and/or there are enough disturbances that they had to be granted more power than they should reasonably have in order to deal with it.

Both of which reveal social problems.

Whether or not they exercise that power, or are even explicitly granted that power, a police force does have power over law abiding citizens. People generally obey authority figures like police officers, and the police are given implicit power by virtue of their position and equipment. Police forces exercise power, even if it is only a socially engineered kind of power. Someone with a gun has power over you, and someone who represents a social peace-keeping force has power over you. We trust them to exercise that power sensibly, but it is still rational to be wary of people in power, and to not entirely trust them.

We should hold lawyers, physicians, and teachers to a similar standard, though tempered by the level of harm they could potentially cause.

xander

[Xocrates]

We trust them to exercise that power sensibly

You're supposed to, but you may not. And while trust is indeed a scale and you may (rationally) not fully trust them, the question "do you trust them" has a binary answer (though which one you give may depend on context).

If in this general context in which the default answer to "do you trust the police to exercise its power sensibly" is supposed to be "yes", but a significant segment of the population answers "no", then there is a problem.

[trickser]

Even my plumber has powers...
>_>
wont
<_<
trust him