Things: Kamikazes and Naval Nukes

[Avatar Terminus]

Here are two distinct suggestions I'd like to make for further Defcon patching.

ONE: KAMIKAZES:
This one I can understand in principle. Fighters crashing into planes, takes em out, it makes sense. Some other things, though, are a little more shady. The worst of the lot was this... in a game plagued by particularly vile luck, five of my active mode subs were beating on a passive mode sub driving past. Well, my five subs failed their "kill it" rolls right up until one of them was on top of the passive mode sub. And then something ridiculous happened.

While dying, the passive mode sub killed one of my active mode subs. Other examples include battleships too close to each other mutually destroying each other, and bombers shooting down fighters by crashing into them. Now... I always thought of Defcon as a relatively simplistic interpretation of modern / late 20th century technology. And frankly, modern boats don't fratricide. They just... don't. Bombers killing submerged subs by crashing on them? Get real.

If at all possible, I'd like the team to consider removing this seemingly meaningless feature altogether. In my last battle, due to chasing a foe near britain my battleships all drove into a pile. I lost four due to fratricides... which I thought was a very real impact into gameplay.

TWO: NAVAL NUKING:
This one I am morally obligated to post about.
I never knew this exploit even existed until I encountered it online, and at first it like the fratricides and kamikazes seemed utterly harmless. That is, until I noticed one thing. When I started thinking I was a pretty good player, and hosting games with names like "2v2, experts only", naval nuking gradually had evolved from a last ditch resort to a primary weapon. The most common use is against active mode subs, as they're unable to see the nukes incoming and are too slow to dodge otherwise.

I've seen one player single handedly wipe out an entire sub fleet using only naval mode bombers...

Other travesties have been emptying airbase bombers at Defcon1 in a europe vs russia map, combining with carrier bombers, and just carpet bombing the entire deployment zone. Total fleet kill save for five ships.

I've seen bombers take out other bombers with mass indirect fire nukeage when all the airbase fighters had been used up... bombers taking out battleships crossing the bering straits.

WHY THIS NEEDS FIXING: Some players may celebrate the randomness it adds, and the level of "skill" that is needed to cajole your bombers into accepting map targets. Others may laud it as a welcome addition into a game that is already supposed to be cutthroat "to the max". Here's what I say: If bombers were intended to have an unblockable long range blind fire one hit kill weapon on any target whatsoever, then the devs would have put it there. Since that's what it puts on bombers, I hope that it will be either toggleable or removed entirely. Even though only one nuke can be fired from a bomber at once, it's still too much. It's the only unit that can fire outside its radar range, and short of silos there's no defense against a truly thick naval nuke bombardment. Movement will save some of your ships, but it won't save your subs and it won't save most of the surface fleet.

Defcon is a tightly balanced game all about proper unit mixture and unit role, and if none of the players are naval nuking, it's quite a lot of fun. I've played against people who are so good at naval nuking they use it as their primary offensive and defensive tools. And that's bad in a lot of ways: It's silly, frustrating for those who play "in the rules", and it doesn't seem to be in what one might dub "the spirit of the game".

[Radiant Caligula]

what in the lords name are you rambling about?

lemme guess: you bitch about naval nuking because you're not very good at it yourself?


expect to be flamed for throwing this pointless post as your first one. Naval nuking is a natural part of the game and there are many ways to counter it: do it better yourself, don't advertise your subs with massive pings in your frontline, send scouts in advance to make sure you dont bump into a nuke squad etc etc. Fleet nuking also act as a deterrent. Nothing stops enemy advances as effectively as a couple of giant firecrackers...

And carpet bombing is a completely legit tactic. It can be utterly devastating, but also a complete waste of resources. It's a gamble. War is a gamble and war is hell. If you don't like the dying don't come trying. Horrible pun, yes. But seriously, all advanced players use naval nukes constantly. It's part of your arsenal. And trust me, the best naval nukers can snipe triplets of moving ships from afar. Don't mean to brag, but I consider myself one of the best snipers out there and the benefits comes with the skill level. I can send a nuke into the pants of the foxy second officer on the 4th level in a carrier on the other side of the Pacific with handcuffs on and with a full body baby oil treatment. If you don't want to improve your game, don't play.

What is the "spirit of the game"? On paper this is the most brutal game ever - and you complain about fried fish? Yes, fleet nuking can be brutal. But the only way to turn it around is to be even more brutal than your opponents. Don't come bitching about encountering better players with better skills and tactics. It isn't a "glitch" or exploit, it's part of your arsenal. I'd suggest you try it instead of claiming it to be dirty tricks. It's quite refreshing. Like shaven scrotums.

[Sirthomasthegreat]

Naval nuking is not an exploit. It was meant to happen. In RL nuking of fleets is a tested strategy, remember Bikini Atol? I would have to agree with the first thing. Today a fighter was shot down over a silo and it counted as a nuke hit and i lost 5 nukes.

[Eat_The_Path]

In the interests of full disclosure I must say I am a friend of Avatar Terminus there, and have played with him on many occasions. We fight side by side frequently, and are pretty damn good at it. In silo management, building placement, and straight up naval fights we can take on most challengers.

Except when naval nuking comes into it.

You may think of this as just the whiny bitching of some players who suck at the game and want it changed to fit our needs. You might be right. But I say this: Defcon is fun for me when there is no naval nuking. Naval nuking makes it not fun. It's not a matter of a skill I need to learn. I've used it occasionally, experimented with it, and it was not fun then, even when it worked. It's just not something I want in a game I'm going to be playing.

It might be better if it could only take out a single ship at a time, instead of whole fleets. That I might buy. And no subs. One nuke should not be able to take out six submerged subs. It just shouldn't.

The last straw came in a game tonight. One nuke took out half a bomber wave. Anit-air nuking is just too far.

Bombers were already the weapon of choice against naval targets. Do they have to become an effective anti-air tool and a godly anti-ship force? Maybe you have fun that way. I don't. Make it a checkbox. "Nukes affect ground targets only". I'd be happy. And I'd never play on a server that didn't have that box checked.

And RC, I do love how you address only half his post, and do so in such a constructive and respectfull way. You are not your f'ing post count. Not everyone who has been playing the game for a good long time has registered on these forums.

[Radiant Caligula]

In the interests of full disclosure I must say I am a friend of Avatar Terminus there, and have played with him on many occasions. We fight side by side frequently, and are pretty damn good at it. In silo management, building placement, and straight up naval fights we can take on most challengers.

Except when naval nuking comes into it.

You may think of this as just the whiny bitching of some players who suck at the game and want it changed to fit our needs. You might be right. But I say this: Defcon is fun for me when there is no naval nuking. Naval nuking makes it not fun. It's not a matter of a skill I need to learn. I've used it occasionally, experimented with it, and it was not fun then, even when it worked. It's just not something I want in a game I'm going to be playing.

It might be better if it could only take out a single ship at a time, instead of whole fleets. That I might buy. And no subs. One nuke should not be able to take out six submerged subs. It just shouldn't.

The last straw came in a game tonight. One nuke took out half a bomber wave. Anit-air nuking is just too far.

Bombers were already the weapon of choice against naval targets. Do they have to become an effective anti-air tool and a godly anti-ship force? Maybe you have fun that way. I don't. Make it a checkbox. "Nukes affect ground targets only". I'd be happy. And I'd never play on a server that didn't have that box checked.

And RC, I do love how you address only half his post, and do so in such a constructive and respectfull way. You are not your f'ing post count. Not everyone who has been playing the game for a good long time has registered on these forums.

did I boast my post count? I only grunted at such a pointless post as a debut. I had my silly debut, we all had.

And I didn't address the first part because there is nothing to address. I wasn't in the mood to explain why things break when massive metal objects fall on top of them. This is not a simulation but Defcon still has contact damage. There, part 1 explained.


So - if you play C&C and you "just dont like the hover tanks" because you don't think the game is fun with that in it, do you stop playing it? Or do you write letters to the producers begging them to remove the hover tanks because some players are too lethal with them? If you don't like random nuking, stop playing. Me, on the other side, love nuking. The more nuking the better. How can you play defcon and not like nukes. They are little treats, packed with joy.

and 1 nuke cannot take out 1 group of 6 anything. The kill zone just isnt big enough. One nuke can take out triplets of ships max. If you aim precisely inside 4 hips with a nuke, nothing happens. And to downgrade nuke power to only kill single ships is like saying nukes conventional weapons. It's not. It is a WMD intended to inflict massive damage. To alter the nuke strength would in fact unbalance the game.

My point is that if it bugs you so much, find ways to secure yourself from it. If not, get used to the nuking of pretty much everything in the game. It is not going away, neither by player transition or recoding.

[Sirthomasthegreat]

One nuke should not be able to take out six submerged subs. It just shouldn't.

The last straw came in a game tonight. One nuke took out half a bomber wave. Anit-air nuking is just too far.

Both of those are completely real. If you detonate a nuke inside a squadron of bombers, they will die.

And aparently you know nothing about nuclear naval warfare.

[Eat_The_Path]

I'm not arguing over what is real. Does a nuclear hit on a real airfield destroy exactly half of each sort of plane stored there? Do hardened silos lose one third of their stores when hit with a nuclear weapon? Do anti-missile systems share a site with ICBM launch silos? I am arguing over what is fun. Because that is what Defcon should be. Nuclear war is not fun. Defcon is.

[Radiant Caligula]

I'm not arguing over what is real. Does a nuclear hit on a real airfield destroy exactly half of each sort of plane stored there? Do hardened silos lose one third of their stores when hit with a nuclear weapon? Do anti-missile systems share a site with ICBM launch silos? I am arguing over what is fun. Because that is what Defcon should be. Nuclear war is not fun. Defcon is.

well, then we disagree. I think Defcon is heaps of fun and I would think the game a bit dull if you had no fear of getting your fleet nuked. Nukes are the prime weapon in Defcon. Deal with it.

If you are so tired of fleet nuking, set up servers where you express a ban on such practices. That's your only hope, I'm afraid.

[Feud]

As far as kamakazie (sp) goes, I'm fine either way. It doesn't bother me, and I would be just as happy to see it changed as kept.

Here's what I say: If bombers were intended to have an unblockable long range blind fire one hit kill weapon on any target whatsoever, then the devs would have put it there.

They did put it there. Except that it is not "unblockable", the nukes are subject to the same rules as any other nuke.

It's the only unit that can fire outside its radar range, and short of silos there's no defense against a truly thick naval nuke bombardment.

Not true actually. The fighter, sub, and silo also fire beyond their radar range.

Also, there is a perfectly good defense against nuke bombers: carriers. Carriers have a much larger radar range, and fighter aircraft can quickly gut any naval nuking attempt. The way, of course to counter this is to have the attacker send out recon fighters of their own, but due to fighters speed and fuel, it means that the defender has a good chance of striking back before the attacker can both launch and arm their bombers.

Defcon is a tightly balanced game all about proper unit mixture and unit role, and if none of the players are naval nuking, it's quite a lot of fun. I've played against people who are so good at naval nuking they use it as their primary offensive and defensive tools. And that's bad in a lot of ways: It's silly, frustrating for those who play "in the rules", and it doesn't seem to be in what one might dub "the spirit of the game".

Where are these "rules" you speak of? Certainly there are certain exploits, such as the land glitch. We know that these are exploits since the developer has said so (a good indication). Just because you don't like someone else's strategy does not mean they are now cheating (which is, be definition, not obeying the rules), exploiting or disrupting the spirit of the game.

You are arbitrarily assigning rules and regulations that the developers did not institute, and have made no indication over the last nine months of ever intending to institute, and expecting others to have somehow reached the same conclusion.

You may think of this as just the whiny bitching of some players who suck at the game and want it changed to fit our needs. You might be right. But I say this: Defcon is fun for me when there is no naval nuking. Naval nuking makes it not fun. It's not a matter of a skill I need to learn. I've used it occasionally, experimented with it, and it was not fun then, even when it worked. It's just not something I want in a game I'm going to be playing.

I have no problem with you disliking naval nuking. For me DEFCON is more fun when teammates don't backstab. Oh sure, I can turn off defection, but I have seen many times where someone is backstabed anyway. It doesn't mean I'm bad at it, I've tried it out and done so very successfully. But that is how the game is played, and it is played that way becuase that is how it was designed. It happens, and I make the best of it.

I'm sorry you don't like it, I really am. But no game is perfect, it cannot be everything to everyone.

It might be better if it could only take out a single ship at a time, instead of whole fleets. That I might buy. And no subs. One nuke should not be able to take out six submerged subs. It just shouldn't.

The last straw came in a game tonight. One nuke took out half a bomber wave. Anit-air nuking is just too far.

I would never "buy" that a nuke can take out only one ship but spare a fleet. Water carries energy much more efficiently then air does, and any nuclear weapon detonated in water can be destructive exponentially further then were it to strike a city.

As for air forces, a nuclear air barrage was one option that was thought could help save a target. The idea is to throw so much fire up in the air so as to intercept and destroy any missiles or aircraft before they can strike. However, nukes really are not that effective at striking aircraft. They are really only reliable if the other player is not paying attention, or if you are very close (at which point your fighter defense should have already been hitting them).




As for RC, don't mind him. He's grumpy as he isn't playing as much as he once did. Give him a few slabs of bacon and a week of gladiator duels and he'll be back to normal.

[shinygerbil]

I have to say, I'm not so keen on fleet nuking myself. Don't get me wrong, it happens to me and I use it myself, and I see why it has become 'necessary', but I'm just not sure it fits with the rest of Defcon. It's just a little too random and unfulfilling.

It's the big, slow, vulnerable, inaccurate but deadly machinegun of the Defcon world, but I'm not sure that Defcon requires it, when it's filled mostly with throwing knifes and tranquiliser darts. ...and maybe high-precision, small-blast grenades

[Feud]

I have to say, I'm not so keen on fleet nuking myself. Don't get me wrong, it happens to me and I use it myself, and I see why it has become 'necessary', but I'm just not sure it fits with the rest of Defcon. It's just a little too random and unfulfilling.

It's the big, slow, vulnerable, inaccurate but deadly machinegun of the Defcon world, but I'm not sure that Defcon requires it, when it's filled mostly with throwing knifes and tranquiliser darts. ...and maybe high-precision, small-blast grenades

I wouldn't be really upset if they got rid of it (I admit that I miss the old days when it wasn't used so much). I also admit that I have done much to spread it's use. What I don't like however is being told that I'm cheating, exploiting, and not obeying the spirit of the game by using a tactic that as of yet no one in the development staff has taken issue with.

[Rogviler]

I wouldn't be really upset if they got rid of it (I admit that I miss the old days when it wasn't used so much)...What I don't like however is being told that I'm cheating, exploiting, and not obeying the spirit of the game by using a tactic that as of yet no one in the development staff has taken issue with.

I agree with that. It is sort of handy for clearing the Armpits of India, since it always tends to get a bit fuzzy with subs and carriers there...

But I'm indifferent to it really. I've had better luck with easier tactics myself so that's what I stick with. But knowing that it's out there does force you to think in new and different ways (stay out da armpits!)

-Rog

[torq]

Did nuke fleets, nuking fleets now and will nuke fleets in the future. Period!
It is completely legitimate tactical move. I sacrifice my nukes which might otherwise have been spent on some more important targets like enemy cities. When I see radial circles on surface near my coast you can be absolute sure I'll send there a nuke or two. Or, when my fleet is destroyed, I'd use bombers as the last resort. What else can I do? Sit and wait when you decide to launch? No way. Moreover, I might use silos as well. It is the odds of war. You're having fun when emptying 6 subs onto my defenceless cities while I am having fun watching that your efforts to sneak the subs to my coast are wasted with a single nuke from bomber. You can do the same. I strongly disagree with the notion that this feature should be disabled. You know that your fleet can be bombed and I know it. What rules at war? Score 2 points for every enemy kill and lose 1 point for anyone you'd fail to protect. That's all.

I say more - I want that subs were able to target random spots on the map too, not just visible targets. One salvo from a fleet of subs can devastate the whole enemy fleet. I'll spend several nukes on it but I'll save my ships. This is a WAR game. There're no rules at war. It's only victory that matters. I'll try to win at any cost - by crashing fighters on radars and ships, carpet bombings of the sea surface, sending nukes into the middle of the incoming bomber's swarm, backstabbing my allies, navigating through Bering straight or between Iceland and Greenland, entering the Red Sea, Mediteranean or Hudson bay and whatever else that would be handy. And I'll be having a lot of fun in the process.

P.S. Among other things this is a tactics game. Using old tactics which is known to every noob doesn't guarantee you a victory so you must be in a constant search of new tactics, unknown and unexpected by others, otherwise defcon would have degraded and forgotten quickly.

[Xocrates]

entering the Red Sea, Mediteranean or Hudson bay and

See, now that's an exploit

[C/Airman_Curtis]

With the naval nuking i hate it, i was playing R.F.Q on the Parinoid UK server and it was awful. He launched so many nukes into the ocean that my whole fleet was destroyed after i decimated his fleet. Off the coast of his continent the water was glowing green. When i attacked the remaining parts of his navy with the reamining subs on my coast i had to move them ASAP because there would be almost 25 nukes going off around that sub. THe best way i found to hide my fleet from nukes was to move to where the first nuke hit, hopping he didnt send two to that spot. It was a horrible game, after my fleet was gone i lost all my bombers since i had transfered them. I really hate people like that. And this wasent 1 or two nukes this was a whole white area of ocean.