Real Cities

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Freebo
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Postby Freebo » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:09 am

there was nothing wrong with the pics just you done need them all in 6 different posts! you could just put them all in your first post, would make it look alot nicer..
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Spacemonkey
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Postby Spacemonkey » Thu Oct 26, 2006 9:49 am

^ Totoro
antidotos
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Postby antidotos » Thu Oct 26, 2006 1:36 pm

This is a reply to Spacemonkey but I want to make a more general point.
- I perfectly agree that 1 megadeath does not mean 1 million dead. But it is more realistically a 1% loss of economic capacity as larger cities concentrate more economic and command power (particularly for tertiary activities). So what is important is not the exact number of inhabitants but rather the exact percentage of urban power that is lost (and urban power is a large percentage of national power in GNP terms, for instance 95% in France). And for that you need accurate population data (yes, recursory argument....). Everything is a matter of proportions. I will take just one example in Europe : in the game the basis for the algorithm of London population is 7.6 million (debatable as the agglomeration is rather in the 12 million league) and is the largest, now compare to Paris whose basis is only 2.1 million, in the game this leads to a 4 to 1 difference (before the application of the mysterious algorithm), in the real world Paris agglomeration is around 10 million inhabitants, so a tiny 20% superiority (again even experts on these questions do not agree because of the census methods used). What I mean is that as regards target Paris and London (for instance) should have similar values. Same remark for most countries, Barcelone is portrayed at 25 city setting but not Madrid : it is a nonsense geographically! So I decided to make my own cities.dat (and make it available for those interested). The differences are not simply a scholar issue they have an incidence on strategy.
- I understand Defcon is just a game and they may have chosen some data for play balance. But I strongly disagree when someone writes it is accurate data, it is not. Further there are mistakes, just one example Belo Horizonte in Brazil, they confused the one (small) in Amazonas and the one (larger) in Minas Gerais.
This game can have educational aspects it would be sad not to use them.
So I will make the modded cities.dat available very soon (Just need more time to tweak it). I managed to get better maps by including the provided Russian cities. Note I have excluded from the files all agglomerations below 1 million except for Russia. I will probably go to as low as 0.75 (using UNO data) and maybe 0.5 for Russia.
My intention is to make a mod with current geopolitical conditions.
Again thanks for your interest.
Antidotos.
Remember the Mahabarhata.
samdude9
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Postby samdude9 » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:10 pm

When the game draws the cities does it draw a different set each time or is that constant? Also does the population of the ones drawn add up to 100mill?
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Spacemonkey
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Postby Spacemonkey » Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:14 pm

The 1's have nothing to do whether the city is displayed or not. The column of 1's and 0's determines whether the name of the country will be displayed beside the city name.
Drumman1000
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Postby Drumman1000 » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:33 am

What, no Vladivostok in Russia?
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Postby Drumman1000 » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:35 am

(double post)
Last edited by Drumman1000 on Fri Oct 27, 2006 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Blackbelt Jones
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Postby Blackbelt Jones » Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:55 pm

Looking forward to this... thanks for your hard work!
antidotos
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realcities dat file available

Postby antidotos » Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:38 pm

Hi all,
for those interested, the real cities cities.dat file is available for download.
Aim : more accurate figures for "realist" proportional agglomeration populations.
You get fewer cities but correct populations, cities and countries (for 2006).
More details in the readme file.
It works well with 35 cities per power but changes strategies (particularly in Africa).
Just experiment with it and let me know.
I would gladly correct mistakes.
This file in final version is supposed to be included in a real geopolitics mod but you can use it freely.
Just let me know your opinion (note it cannot change the game mechanics so that some major cities remain "hidden").

Go here:
http://perso.orange.fr/simulaction/realcities10.zip

Thanks.
Blackbelt Jones
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Re: realcities dat file available

Postby Blackbelt Jones » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:40 am

antidotos wrote:Just let me know your opinion (note it cannot change the game mechanics so that some major cities remain "hidden").

Go here:
http://perso.orange.fr/simulaction/realcities10.zip

Thanks.


Bravo! Outstanding work! I just downloaded it and ran a test game... good to see some of the previously missing cities appear, and the ratios for many of the North American cities are finally correct (i.e. San Fran, San Antionio, etc). Simply outstanding work!!!!!!
Last edited by Blackbelt Jones on Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:01 am, edited 2 times in total.
Blackbelt Jones
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Postby Blackbelt Jones » Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:47 am

Antidotos,

In an effort to perfect your excellent mod, some changes for North America are required. Note that in all cases they are Introversion's errors that simply carried over, and nothing you did on your part. You just made a great game even better! :)

1) Right now Vegas is somewhere in south Colorado. Change the coordinates for Las Vegas to -116.16 / 36.50 That's not perfect, but it's pretty darn close.

2) Vancouver will NOT show up unless the coordinates are changed. -124.08 / 50.08 will get it pretty close to where it should be, with just enough seperation from Seattle.

3) Another Introversion error that involves using a graphic editing app to fix. Miami will not show up unless the North American Territory Map (northamerica.bmp) is modified... I had to expand the territory a hair in south eastern Florida to get Miami to appear.

I hope that helps!!!
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LordSturm
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Postby LordSturm » Wed Nov 01, 2006 9:25 am

Omg, he's done it folks, a 7-in-a-row postage!!!
And look how long its lasted without a single mod making a peep!

So are you just adjusting population counts, or are you adding cities too?

Because I'm seeing new cities pop up. :)
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antidotos
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Postby antidotos » Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:30 pm

To Lordsturm :
I have already stated I was sorry for mishandling the first posts. I removed the pics so I do not think it is time to chat about that. :(
Regarding your question : Yes there are new cities with correct populations but some of them are not visible due to game mechanics (need to change their coords or the bmps).
I m in the process of preparing a Geopolitics mod able to include all the countries (yes including Australia and NZ). I must admit however that editing the countries bmps is really painful.....

To Blackbelt Jones :
thanks a lot for trying the file and providing corrections and feedback. I will include your remarks in the next release. As you wrote the bmps are key in the game for the city algorithm. I do not understand why they did not use a higher resolution map, even painting each pixel is not accurate enough ! When the coords of two cities are close they tend to fill in the same pixel so that one of them is left out (the less populated one but we are talking about multimillion agglomerations here....). Even the borders are too wide and Ciudad Juarez is pictured in the USA...... Maybe I should nix it and introduce El Paso.

Note to all : using the real cities file I got an interesting fight with 40 cities per country setting in survivor mode. (I think it is the most realist scoring mode, I strongly doubt someone responsible for having part of his citizens nuked would be reelected even if he managed to destroy half of the planet)
I m pretty sure there are other blatant mistakes that people from the respective countries could notice easily (any Chinese or Indian player here ? :wink: ), please report them.

Thanks again for your feedback.
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Nutter
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Postby Nutter » Wed Nov 01, 2006 3:44 pm

I strongly doubt someone responsible for having part of his citizens nuked would be reelected even if he managed to destroy half of the planet


Just become a dictator, problem solved :D
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Blackbelt Jones
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Postby Blackbelt Jones » Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:54 am

antidotos wrote:To Lordsturm :
Even the borders are too wide and Ciudad Juarez is pictured in the USA...... Maybe I should nix it and introduce El Paso.

Thanks again for your feedback.


I agree 100%. I removed Ciudad Juarez all together in my game, but I never thought to replace it with El Paso. Been using for a few days now, and I really think you have done some nice, thoughtful work. I can't wait to see your Geopolitc mod!!!

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