Naval battle is over... best defense tactics.

In-depth tactical discussion on how to lose the least

Moderator: Defcon moderators

User avatar
torq
level3
level3
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:28 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Naval battle is over... best defense tactics.

Postby torq » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:09 am

The vital part of the victory is winning at sea (well, almost always with possible exception of Russia/Asia).

But you can't always win, so there are times when your opponent sinks all your ships and all you have is 1-2 battleships (or carriers).

So, I'd like to hear best defensive tactics in situations like that. Naval nuking, for example, requires knowledge of where your opponent is, and this is the most difficult part. Bombers get shot down with fighters even before they see enemy ships. Nuking blindly doesn't really help.

I know that most of you will say that if you lost at sea then you lost the game but I'm asking how to minimize the gap on the scoreboard. It's not that I look for some 'ultimate tactics' that works always. Just wanted you to share the experience.
NMO
User avatar
davy o.o -.- crocket
level1
level1
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:15 am

Postby davy o.o -.- crocket » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:19 am

In diplomacy you don't have to place any units at all. Now that's a surefire way to win. Anyone thought of that?
User avatar
torq
level3
level3
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:28 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Postby torq » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:26 am

That was very helpful. Particularly in view that I was asking about 1v1 games.
NMO
User avatar
sfericz
level5
level5
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:25 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Postby sfericz » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:55 am

My one trick is...
To launch ALL silos with one nuke each, Preferably at your opponents silo if you see them. Then close all silos and wait for his retaliation.

Some will launch all subs or silos once their fleet-less opponent's launches all silos, usually they only send enough to take out 'opened silos' .If your silos are closed fast enough you might take out his retaliation wave and then have the position of his military targets.

Try playing it well, put the speed at 1 for a little while after you launch, giving the idea your targeting stuff.

Other than that, keep your navy alive! :p
User avatar
davy o.o -.- crocket
level1
level1
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:15 am

Postby davy o.o -.- crocket » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:49 am

sorry, it just occured to me.
User avatar
Nightwatch
level5
level5
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Nightwatch » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:27 am

Oh well...

The vital part of the victory is winning at sea (well, almost always with possible exception of Russia/Asia).

Wrong.
The vital part of victory is to get enough of you fleet in striking range. You don't need to destroy the enemy fleet for that.

But you can't always win, so there are times when your opponent sinks all your ships and all you have is 1-2 battleships (or carriers).

Apart from playing against Ace with the Star you can always win.
The key is not to engage in hopless fights. It`s pointless to lose all offensive naval power in a failed attempt to stop the enemys fleets.
Chose the battlefield and the time yourself. Fight on your own terms.

So, I'd like to hear best defensive tactics in situations like that. Naval nuking, for example, requires knowledge of where your opponent is, and this is the most difficult part. Bombers get shot down with fighters even before they see enemy ships. Nuking blindly doesn't really help.

If you play against a skilled player who has six or more carriers left its over for youin that scenario.
But in general: Fighters, Fighters, Fighters. Forget the carriers. The have almost no nukes left anyway at that point.
Concentrate on shooting down the enemy bombers.
Exhaust his fighter supplies. Then finish him off with bombers and recon carriers.
Try to keep the enemy busy. Launch fighters to disturb him. Keep him away from your coast. Distance means time. Time means kills.




My one trick is...
To launch ALL silos with one nuke each, Preferably at your opponents silo if you see them. Then close all silos and wait for his retaliation.

Suizide in 1v1.
I thank you for revealing your silo positions and take them out with 6 nukes each from my own silos.
User avatar
torq
level3
level3
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2006 6:28 pm
Location: Moscow, Russia

Postby torq » Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:50 am

The last game I lost was like that:

I was Russia and had 2 battleships left while my opponent was USA and had 4-5 carriers.
I had bombers of course but he stayed too far away from my coast to reach him with fighters and my battleships had difficult time avoiding his bombers (that damn radar range of a carrier). I tried to nuke the spots where fighters were coming from but he easily avoided them.
I managed to take down most of his bombers, but he finally managed to find out where my silos were so I had no choice but to launch.
NMO
User avatar
Nightwatch
level5
level5
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Nightwatch » Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:36 pm

So, why did you lose your fleet?
Why did you engage the enemy in the first place?
Russia vs USA is the classic scenario for a game with no big naval battle. It`s just not necessary.
As Russia, just deploy 2/3 of your surface fleet and all subs in the pacific. Set course for the South, avoid detection as you sail east. Launch your attack south of Mexico.
USA won`t deploy his assets in the pacific. Nothing to hit from there. You will dominate the pacific.
Of course he could use the Bering Strait or deploy a small contigent to the Indic (although normally one would sail around Africa for that).
To cover the Bering Strait use radars in Siberia, two airfields in the far east (you need them anyway to supply your fleet in the pacific) and two or three carriers / battleships in the northern seas.
You can eat up lots of ships there if you`re somewhat skilled. Just nuke them or attak with bombers. He is almost blind upthere while you havbe excellent radar coverage.
But normally, USA will attack classical in the North Atlantic. Don`t panic if it happens, you don`t need muc naval assets to defend your main population centers apart from St. Petersburg and Moscow. Your main goal is to avoid recon runs to detect your silos.
Keep in mind, there is not much space to sail upthere. If your enemy makes a push to the seas east of Murmansk he is forced to deploy all his assets in a very small area for a very long time. Remember, you have silo cover upthere.
So, deploy your bombers and scramble some fighters for cover. Nuke the enemy as soon as he comes in range. Kill his bombers.
Retreat your naval forces. Don`t let him catch you. You have much water in the east. Your enemy has to run against a solid wall of silos.
Thats pointless. He`ll stop and try to recon them. Don`t let him do that. If he doesn`t stop your bombers will eat him up.
Its not difficult to defend upthere. You can kill shitloads of bombers and ships with almost no naval assets.

Therefore, what should the USA-Player do?
He has one main problem: He cannot defend two coast. If he deploys his fleets in one ocean, changes are Russia might attack from the other one. If he splits his navy he will be crushed.
Thus, the only way is to attack. I recommend an expeditionary force (most of your carriers, some battleships, all subs) to the Indic. Russia won`t stop you downthere. He`ll be busy playing defense in the North Atlantic or sneeking around in the pacific.
By attacking from the Indic you have nullified your two coast disadvantage. Its irrelevant if Russia can attack unharmed, you can do the same.
If you got lucky and Russia attacks where the rest of your fleet is based you should win.
Sailing the Bering is nice to, at least for those who are able to do it.
But be carefull, fighting in the North can be interesting…
User avatar
rus|Mike
level5
level5
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:52 pm
Location: Russia, St. Petersburg

Postby rus|Mike » Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:08 pm

Nightwatch, all you say about Defcon tactics is terribly wrong. Almost every sentence. I'm too lazy to quote each frase and explain what's wrong, so just believe me :) (do I have 1v1 authority or what? :P) And by the way, you hardly keep on topic :wink:

torq,
Answering your question about what you can do... in case your enemy does everything correct, I'm afraid, nothing. However, you can try to make use of his errors.

Your actions should depend on if you have subs left. If yes and enough, than use what's left from your fleet to secure a sub launch. If yes but very few (1-3 or so), position them so that they have enemy silos in range (you should know at least app. their position) and hope to do smth if he opens (another option is use them do distract AA fire while your 1-3 carriers are launching recon fighters from some unexpected place).
Your fleet (in case of having few or no subs) should be positioned so that you'll be warned about coming enemy well beforehand. Try not to let him to recon your silos (if you're confident he will do it anyway, better launch them the moment you understeand it. Combined with subs if you have them). SRBM mode bombers are your power (I hope you don't have them all lost :P ). You can well defend against recon with them but the main point is trying to kill enemy subs with them (while they are surfacing is an ideal time). If you do it sucessfully, you will minimise the prise of lost naval battle.

Key points.

You're defending, so make good use of:
-Your land radars.
-Your constantly-giving-you-fighters airbses
-Your ability to have bomber patrols all the time (thanks to airbses being close again)
-Your left ships for additional radar.
-The time. If you have enough bombers, constantly use few of them to bomb unprotected cities (India, Siberia, South of Europe- you will always find some).
-Bert's Radar Mod will help you to position your subs so that they can't be seen with land radars when they are surfaced.
User avatar
Nightwatch
level5
level5
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Nightwatch » Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:06 pm

rus|Mike wrote:Nightwatch, all you say about Defcon tactics is terribly wrong. Almost every sentence. I'm too lazy to quote each frase and explain what's wrong, so just believe me :) (do I have 1v1 authority or what? :P) And by the way, you hardly keep on topic :wink:
:lol:
Funny that i`m able to win most of my 1v1 matches, don`t you think?

Of course, i`m not talking about the best players outthere. He can´t win against you, Ace or Bor anyway.
Its about the medium skilled 1v1 player. Those tactics are more than enough against them.


Your actions should depend on if you have subs left. If yes and enough, than use what's left from your fleet to secure a sub launch. If yes but very few (1-3 or so), position them so that they have enemy silos in range (you should know at least app. their position) and hope to do smth if he opens (another option is use them do distract AA fire while your 1-3 carriers are launching recon fighters from some unexpected place).

Not that easy to get any surface assets to sub launching positions when your enemy rules the seas.
But im confident that you have a solution for that little problem.



You're defending, so make good use of:
-Your land radars.
-Your constantly-giving-you-fighters airbses
-Your ability to have bomber patrols all the time (thanks to airbses being close again)
-Your left ships for additional radar.
-The time. If you have enough bombers, constantly use few of them to bomb unprotected cities (India, Siberia, South of Europe- you will always find some).

Apart from that it is absolutely stupid to waste your last CVNs for radar coverage when your enemy dominates your shores, i`m saying nothing else.
User avatar
rus|Mike
level5
level5
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:52 pm
Location: Russia, St. Petersburg

Postby rus|Mike » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:05 pm

Nightwatch wrote:It's about the medium skilled 1v1 player. Those tactics are more than enough against them.

Well, in case you put it that way, I can agree
Nightwatch wrote:Not that easy to get any surface assets to sub launching positions when your enemy rules the seas.

As I said, if the enemy does everything correctly, you can't do anything. But the fact is that you can't do anything else with 1-3 subs rather than doing what I said. And besides, I highly doubt that "middle skilled player" you're talking about will be able to cover all possible areas with patrols. I once have successfully launched NINE subs from all possible directions. Against a dominating-seas-pro who opened his silos. People make mistakes, I was just telling how to use them.
Nightwatch wrote:Apart from that it is absolutely stupid to waste your last CVNs for radar coverage when your enemy dominates your shores, i`m saying nothing else.

I can say nothing about "middle skilled players" :lol: but in a serious match it's the best you can do with them in case you have little to no subs. There's just no other way to use them.

Your answer cought my attention because I'm much interested in NA tactics against Russia lately and I consider all what you said the enemy just won't do because it's stupid the best strategy possible.
User avatar
Nightwatch
level5
level5
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Nightwatch » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:33 pm

rus|Mike wrote:As I said, if the enemy does everything correctly, you can't do anything. But the fact is that you can't do anything else with 1-3 subs rather than doing what I said. And besides, I highly doubt that "middle skilled player" you're talking about will be able to cover all possible areas with patrols.

Its not that hard to lets say shield SA when your enemy is EU and your navy is sitting in the North Atlantic.
No surface vessel will get through.

rus|Mike wrote:I once have successfully launched NINE subs from all possible directions. Against a dominating-seas-pro who opened his silos. People make mistakes, I was just telling how to use them.
Yeah and i once beat Mor. Or twice.
Launching nine subs successfully is not that hard against an middle player, with or without surface assets.

Nightwatch wrote:I can say nothing about "middle skilled players" :lol: but in a serious match it's the best you can do with them in case you have little to no subs. There's just no other way to use them.
Sure there is. Hide the carriers and launch fighters from them to intercept enemy bomber waves.

Nightwatch wrote:Your answer cought my attention because I'm much interested in NA tactics against Russia lately and I consider all what you said the enemy just won't do because it's stupid the best strategy possible.
You have no idea what middle skilled players do :D
User avatar
rus|Mike
level5
level5
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:52 pm
Location: Russia, St. Petersburg

Postby rus|Mike » Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:53 pm

The point is missed. Discussion becomes useless :wink:
Why?
level5
level5
Posts: 1371
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:34 pm
Location: Verona

Postby Why? » Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:14 pm

As Russia, just deploy 2/3 of your surface fleet and all subs in the pacific. Set course for the South, avoid detection as you sail east. Launch your attack south of Mexico.
USA won`t deploy his assets in the pacific. Nothing to hit from there. You will dominate the pacific.
Of course he could use the Bering Strait or deploy a small contigent to the Indic (although normally one would sail around Africa for that).


Not a bad strat for beginners, but I've been caught a few times trying to do exactly that with the Russian fleet. Good players will send a fleet south and through the same path. If they mow you down, they'll head west to the indian ocean, with most of their subs and bomb/nuke the shit out of you. So there is definitely a good reason for him to deploy most of his assets there! If you send your fleet straight through, or from the north, now he's got you flanked.

Loading up in the pacific, against usa, and launching subs under Mexico, if the most widely used tactic in that scenario, by far. So USA usually matches the fleet up in a similar way, and plays defense on pacific, with airbase bombers. Even if you don't have ships, people sub hunt that area south of mexico and west...even down SA if they can expend the fleet.


BTW I DEMAND REMATCH! I will get my vengeance! :evil: I'm available after 22 GMT through thursday.
User avatar
Nightwatch
level5
level5
Posts: 1288
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 3:02 pm
Location: Germany

Postby Nightwatch » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:05 am

Why? wrote:Not a bad strat for beginners, but I've been caught a few times trying to do exactly that with the Russian fleet. Good players will send a fleet south and through the same path. If they mow you down, they'll head west to the indian ocean, with most of their subs and bomb/nuke the shit out of you.
Yes, so what.
In that case one would have the classic Defcon game with one important naval engagement.
Of course, there is a high chance that a experienced player deploys his units in the pacific. And then there is n high chance when playing as USA against an experienced Russia cause it would be the obvious move to deploy in the pacific.
As i said before, we`re talking about the average defcon player. He or she won`t put most of is units in the pacific. There is nothing to hit from there. He will attack in the North Altantic nine out of ten times.
It`s an entierly new game when you play against the top then Defcon players. But he will lose against them anyway.

Why? wrote:Loading up in the pacific, against usa, and launching subs under Mexico, if the most widely used tactic in that scenario, by far. So USA usually matches the fleet up in a similar way, and plays defense on pacific, with airbase bombers.
Let him. When playing against an opponent wtih similar skill its no good idea to play defense iwth your entire fleet in the wrong ocean. You don`t win by defending your cities, you`ll by nuking the enemy.
Go ahead, lose your fleet in the pacific. In the end, you`ll have a couple of ships left (if you`re successfull) but you are still thousand of miles away from russias population centers.
Its a different topic when two attack forces stumble on each other. But deploying almost your entire fleet to from an possible attack is just wrong.
I give up the Mexican Seas for an Alpha Strike from the Indic or Northern Atlantic any time.


Why? wrote:Even if you don't have ships, people sub hunt that area south of mexico and west...even down SA if they can expend the fleet.
Yeah, plz do that. Your carriers will just run into the russian fleet. No subhunting possible when they are sitting in the Mexican Waters and the subs somewhere south of that.
And forget fleet nuking. It just doesn`t work :wink:

Why? wrote:BTW I DEMAND REMATCH! I will get my vengeance! :evil: I'm available after 22 GMT through thursday.

I`m GMT +2 and have to work. So, nothing before 15:30GMT and after 19:00GMT during the week.

Return to “Strategic Air Command”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests