Navy Fights - Advance towards the enemy or wait?

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PsychicKid
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Navy Fights - Advance towards the enemy or wait?

Postby PsychicKid » Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:39 pm

Obviously as we all know, a navy is the key to winning. If you have no navy, you have no mobile offense, and thus can only attack your neighbor (unless your airfields are all in east China, then you're just screwed, or if you know how to use silos effectively), but the thing that's been buzzing around my head lately is what you should do with your navy. Do you advance forward, go on the offense, and break through his territory? Or do you wait? Wait for the enemy to come to you, and dominate with air support from your air bases and AA silo fire.

Both sides have their merits, though.

Advancing advantages:
-Push the enemy into a psychological state of panic and fear
-Easily able to scout out enemy territory once you take over his coast

Advancing disadvantages:
-No additional support. Unless you have an ally to assist (such as Asia and SA VS US), what you've got is what you've got. The enemy can bomber snipe from air fields if he has radar coverage of your navy.
-Your own territory is wide open for enemy navies and airforces.

Defense advantages:
-Home field advantage with better radar coverage, AA from silos, and airbases to bomber snipe and restock fighters.

Defense disadvantages:
-In default mode, unless you have subs en-route to the enemy, others will beat you to the larger cities if your forces stay behind and defend.

It seems to me that turtling up with your navy works best in Diplomacy/Survivor mode, while advancing forward works best in Default/Genocide mode, obviously. Both strategies have thier ups and downs.

Anyone have additional thoughts or other extra strategies to add?

(PS: Fighter restocking from bases to carriers ftw!)
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Postby Feud » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:06 pm

I often use a defensive setup, and I have noticed several things in doing so:

*Carriers are better left in either fighter or bomber mode, not sub. If you are staying close enough for ground support then most of the coast line is within arms reach. Subs can be quickly delt with as soon as they surface. However, since you are sacrificing surprise for firepower you need to take advantage of it. THe enemy will have the advantage of hitting you where every they please, so you must be able to respond quickly and decisivly. If they come by sea you need to quickly flood them with bombers. If they come by air you must be able to respond with fighters (perhaps even more quickly here do to the SRBM range). Subs are fragile to aircraft, so you stand to gain more by having them equiped, rather then dept charges (which are only usable against one threat).

*Beware of false walls. By waiting, especially if the enemy does not seem to arrive, one can delvelope the midset of "any moment now", or "as soon as I leave, then he will show up". What ever you do, do so because you think it is best, not because you are worried about what they might do. Part of winning is being confident in yourself, and self doubt (which is differant from aknowledging one's own weaknesses, a good thing to know) breeds failure.

*Even when defending you should take the fight to the enemy. The proverb of the best defense is a good offense is true. Thier arrival at your waters means that they are far from support. Using ground based fighters, launch a full scale attack on the enemy forces. Keep an eye open in case their initial attack is a feint, but you took the defensive stance in order to have more resources on hand, use them! Mostlikely they will have 24 bombers or less on hand. You can field up to 44.

*Remember, you may have the home field advantage, but you are being forced to react to what ever they have cooked up.

*What ever choice you make, failing to decide is the worst choice of all. Decide what you will do and then do it.
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Postby torq » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:24 pm

That heavily depends on the theatre. And it takes a lot of guessing and gambling at the beginning. First of all, the fleet is effective when it attacks, not defends so you should attack whenever that's possible. The strategic decision is where to place your fleets... Every country has its own concerns

Russia - if it has forged an alliance with Europe it can safely place its fleet there and harass Asia or USA. The most logical targets are the coastal Asian cities. And Russia only risks its fleet there. If it loses there is no immediate danger to its territory. So the best way is to go for offense. A very aggressive one.
If the're no alliance with Europe, Russia will have to protect itself from the northwest and its whole fleet would be in Arctic ocean. Since Europe is so small you can effectively attack and defend at the same time - the ideal way.
Naval threats: Europe. Possible sub launch position - Northern Sea near Norway. (very seldom from the subs that came through the Bering straight - have 1-2 carriers watching your north east)


Asia - its primary concerns are Africa and Russia. Since Africa is closer than USA the whole fleet should be placed in Indian ocean and go for offence, also VERY aggressively. Indian ocean shouls remain under control of Asia during the whole game. The eastern coast would be nuked anyway no matter how hard you try to defend it, while from the Indian ocean you can attack both Russia and Africa very effectively (Russian cities usually are free to nuke with bombers launched from carriers. And you can relatively quickly relocate your fleets to the Pacific to meet dangers from there. So the best way for Asia is to attack from the Indian ocean and to defend the Pacific.
Naval threats: USA, SA, Russia, Africa. Possible sub launch positions - to the North East from Tokyo, Islands of SE Asia, to the north of Madagascar, to the south of India

Africa. Its primary enemy is Asia and SA to somewhat lesser degree (because of the coastline configuration). Since Africa is a very special continent in the game (it's located in the 'middle' of the game world) it can be attacked from Europe, USA and Russia as well. Its main naval forces should be located near its southern tip leaving some minor anti-sub defences along its Atlantic coast. Since the southern tip seems so attractive for subs for some reason, it should be very well protected with carriers. Also, from there Africa can direct its attacks on SA (SA is best attacked form the south).
African chances in the Indian ocean are less, still, the key is the southern tip. Bombers from there can scout and attack both Atlantic and Indian aquatories and if SA is preoccupied elsewhere, leave it to subs (usually they work rather well) and go after Asia to the Indian ocean. (Or if you've noticed fleet activity in the Pacific). Since Atlantic is so narrow near the equator it can be easily defended from airbases. And if you're Africa you HAVE to attack in order to win.
Naval threats: Asia, SA, possible sub launch positions - southern tip of Africa - to the SW from Madagascar and to the west from Kinshasa.

SA. The worst continent for naval battles. :) Really, there's nothing but vast emptiness to the west of it but there will always be enemy subs, probably from all sides :) and it is too crowded in the north and there's nothing to defend from the east. Of course there is Sao Paolo - but it almost always gets nuked during the game, so trying to defend it is a futile job. The same with Mexico. The only real worthy target for South America is USA which is within reach almost immediately. Alas, they are usually allied. The choices are either to cross the Pacific and attack Asia (but by the time your fleet will get there there most probably wouldn't be anything worthy to attack). That leaves only Europe and Africa. The best way I think is to place your fleet in the northern Atlantic and try to win there over Europe and USA... or with USA if you happen to be allied. You can achieve interesting results if you ally yourself with Europe against USA and then backstab Europe, but talking Europe into it is not an easy job :). Placing fleet in the north will allow you to attack both US and Europe AND defend yourself against their subs firing at your silos. Remember - YOU CAN'T SAVE SAO PAOLO, accept it right from the beginning and don't even try. Concentrate on your silos protection instead. While placing it in the south will get you nowhere except Africa (well, if you move fast, you can attack Asia both from Indian and Pacific oceans, but this is a gamble, because your own territory will be defenseless and if there is nothing to attack in Asia - you would lose).
Resume: attack USA/Europe with your fleet.
Naval threats: Africa, later USA/Europe. Possible sub launch positions - nearly all west coast (players tend to cover LA, SF, Mexico and Lima - so spots from where subs can reach all of those places are the most dangerous), also position to the south/south east from Sao Paolo - nukes from there easily reach Sao Paolo itself and Santiago. AND the most dangerous sub launches come from your north - and that is another good reason to place fleet there.


USA - usually gets nuked from all sides at once :lol: Right from the beginning accept the loss of San Francisco, NY and LA. Splitting your fleets usually doesn't work so you have the choices Atlantic or Pacific. The most important part in it is whether you are in alliance with SA or not (and whether your partner should be trusted :lol:) My choice is Atlantic. Remember whoever comes to you from the west has limited abilities - he made a long jouney and he won't have any reinforcements - that's your advantage. Europe, from the other hand can easily resupply its carriers and make your life really miserable because of that. Allied with SA try to negotiate him into following my advice regarding his fleet placement (see SA for details). Together you can easily overwhelm Europe and get points from it. Just have carriers or bomber patrols in places where subs are most likely to appear - to the west of Greenland, around Cuba and just central northern Atlantic. It MUST be yours.
Always be ready to nuke the Pacific to the south-south west from Mexico. 12 SA's subs launching from there can put you out of the game seconds after Defcon 1 sounds. Picking fleet fights there is pointless - you may win there but Europe will eat your unprotected east coast. Moreover - if Europe happens to be destroyed by Russia/Africa you will have two options instead of one in Pacific - you can go north and try to attack Russia (right through the European territory) or go down and attack Africa.
And the last thing - you can send your subs to navigate through Bering straight and attack Asian north from the Arctic. Practice shows that you simply don't have enough time to go farther west and attack Russia (subs are very slow), but you can try that in long diplo games - by the time victory timer starts your subs may reach launch position, but I advise not to risk and launch at Asia instead.
Naval hazards - everyone. Possible sub launch positions - Arctic, west from Greenland, Central Atlantic, Cuba, nearly all northern Pacific and especially south/south west form Mexico (very dangerous).


Europe - is best defended when Allied with Russia. It has a very small coastline to defend so it can easily gain control over central Atlantic (especially if Russia placed its fleet in the north and moves fast). USA is usually the first who appears.
Always have 1-2 battleships in the Northern Sea along with 1-2 carriers (USA usually forms bomber swarms up over Greenland or to the north of it and attacks from there - 2 battleships in the extreme north can save your ass.
When you are not allied with Russia your primary concern should be defense against it (and if you win you would get the whole Russia as a prize).
Naval hazards: Russia, USA, Africa (to a lesser degree). Possible sub attacks go from the Northern sea, from near the Iceland and to the South of Spain.


Thus my overview is concluded. Hope it woudl help at least somebody. Don't beat me up with it, if nothing else I typed a lot of letters :)
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Postby caranthir.pkk » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:29 am

Huge difference between 1vs1 and Six-player games. You should concentrate on 1vs1, its where you refine your game.
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Postby torq » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:59 am

Granted, but 6 player games are more fun and have more options. The whole world is yours and it gives you insights about other players' personalities, habits and preferred tactics without being directly involved in a 1v1 combat with them. I wouldn't say that playing 1v1 is more difficult and requires more skill. Different rules apply and 6 player games require more attention and fast decisions. You always fight at least two opponents both defending and attacking, gambling and sacrificing, keeping track of everything. A 1v1 game is less chaotic and more methodical. You start thinking about the things you don't have time to think about in a 6 player game.
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Postby caranthir.pkk » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:09 am

torq wrote:Granted, but 6 player games are more fun and have more options. The whole world is yours and it gives you insights about other players' personalities, habits and preferred tactics without being directly involved in a 1v1 combat with them. I wouldn't say that playing 1v1 is more difficult and requires more skill. Different rules apply and 6 player games require more attention and fast decisions. You always fight at least two opponents both defending and attacking, gambling and sacrificing, keeping track of everything. A 1v1 game is less chaotic and more methodical. You start thinking about the things you don't have time to think about in a 6 player game.


Actually you have less options. To win a six-player game, you have to launch early. So basically its a rush on which player can hit the big juicy cities first. After that its simply evading engagement and mopping up some minor stuff you can reach. Most of the time I dont even bother to defend my cities anymore. 1vs1 is completely different, since its a true game of strategy and superior tactics, rather than a lottery of who gets Africa and who can launch first.
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Postby torq » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:19 am

You know, I tend to launch silos late (usually when timer starts) and still win (actually, bombers do more kills than silos or subs in my case). It's a matter of taste, I think. Both types of gameplay are interesting in their own way. Diplomacy games, for instance, require absolutely different approach. I'm not going to prove or insist on anything. I am far from being the 'best player ever' but I don't even try. I just play. There are more challenging things in this world for self-assertion than Defcon.
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Postby Gen. Ripper » Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:40 am

torq wrote:SA. The worst continent for naval battles. :) Really, there's nothing but vast emptiness to the west of it


What!? I think SA is the the best for naval battles, being that you have that much space to manover and play with when facing advancing fleets, if you have continual bomber patrols off your coast, then you can counter any sub launch, not to mention that most other Territorys are fighting each other, or have to fight one to get to you
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Postby torq » Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:57 am

Gen. Ripper wrote:
torq wrote:SA. The worst continent for naval battles. :) Really, there's nothing but vast emptiness to the west of it


What!? I think SA is the the best for naval battles, being that you have that much space to manover and play with when facing advancing fleets, if you have continual bomber patrols off your coast, then you can counter any sub launch, not to mention that most other Territorys are fighting each other, or have to fight one to get to you


:) I put a smiley there knowing that there would be objections. What I meant is that nobody wants to pick a fight with you. It's a VERY long way to Asia for the fleet and if you're allied with USA the only continent you can fight with is Africa. I meant 'backwater' when wrote the word 'worst' I certainly was not saying that SA is in any way worse naval opponent than anyone else. It's just its remote location which makes it hard for SA fleet to reach places where its targts are in time. Worst means - you have your fleet but you have rather limited options with it. That's WHY I advise to put a fleet in northern Atlantic - just to give it something to do.
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Postby Pater » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:56 am

How you should use your navy depends a lot..

And not the least on the distance to the enemy lands. And of course the number of players. Also depends on where you placed your silos. As well as where your enemy deploys. Geography.

I say leave the multiple paragraph guides. Use your brains and consider the several variables and how they should affect your game, and your stance.
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Postby Gen. Ripper » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:58 am

Ahh, but couple SA with survivor mode and you get a winning combination (or diplomacy for that matter)

mmm im becoming quite the survivor mode "pusher"
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Postby Pater » Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:00 am

On 6 player games.

caranthir.pkk wrote:
-- rather than a lottery of ... who can launch first.


This is not a lottery. Silo placement and alliances heavily affect it, and especially how you use your navy.

The set of skills needed in 6v6 are different than in 1v1.
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Postby kentuckyfried » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:03 am

6 player is a clutch and grab sort of scenario, who can scoop the points first. End of discussion on that.

1 vs. 1 is pitting yourself against one opponent who is completely focused on you. Move and countermove. There is far more pure strategy involved in a 1vs1 as well as more execution of actual tactics instead of the constant twitch of a frantic 6 player game with regular scoring.
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Postby Gen. Ripper » Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:08 pm

kentuckyfried wrote:6 player is a clutch and grab sort of scenario, who can scoop the points first. End of discussion on that.


what about Survivor mode, cant grab the points if the points are your own citys now can you?

kentuckyfried wrote:1 vs. 1 is pitting yourself against one opponent who is completely focused on you. Move and countermove. There is far more pure strategy involved in a 1vs1 as well as more execution of actual tactics instead of the constant twitch of a frantic 6 player game with regular scoring.


in most 6 player games its not as if every player attacks every other player at the same time, alliances form (and often dont last) but normally you would be engaged on 1-2 fronts and have cease fire's in effect with people.

In terms of strategy, i think there is more, since your normally supporting a joint manover, or sending small scale strikes against muliple targets, and of course having to think from 5 other players perspectives.
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Postby Braddock » Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:19 pm

I would say that 1v1 and 6 player games simply involve different kinds of strategy. Especially in the case of survivor and diplomacy games, 6-player games are very strategic.

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