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ToRmEnToR
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Mon May 02, 2005 8:34 pm

doormat wrote:And just to be clear: Are you supporting Isreali control of Jerusalem, or a reinstatment of Trust Territory status, ToRmEnToR?


I support israeli control over jerusalem.
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Postby Banker » Tue May 03, 2005 2:54 am

ToRmEnToR wrote:I support israeli control over jerusalem.


And so the eternal question shall be asked again;

Why?
Me300 wrote:I love how Banker has the uncanny capability cussing all the time while making his arguments.
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Postby Banker » Tue May 03, 2005 2:57 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Umm. . . Politics is all philosophy. . . I'm rather at a loss as to how that is not entirely obvious.


I have to disagree, one's political views are usually based in your philosopfies.. But politics is about compromises.
Me300 wrote:I love how Banker has the uncanny capability cussing all the time while making his arguments.
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Tue May 03, 2005 12:16 pm

Banker wrote:And so the eternal question shall be asked again;

Why?



1) Experiance. The israeli police and army have years of experiance when it comes to dealing with angry mobs which come to super crowded places (like jerusalem). If international forces take control over jerusalem, it'll take them a while (a few years?) to get used to the situation and learn how to deal with crowds from different religions that come to pray in jerusalem. Especially in these days when the situation is tough. I'm not even gonna mention how far the palestinian police is from being able to handle such situations.

2) Security. With all the terrorist activity boiling behind israeli security, security is a major issue in jerusalem. What looks like super human rights violating security provided by israel is barely enough to stop terror acts. The freedom that will be given if international forces took over will lead to a lot of terror acts against other religions (probably jewish though) by palestinian terrorists.
The UN peacekeeping soldiers have already shown their uselessness in the israeli-palestinian conflict. Soldiers were sent lightly armed (sometimes even unarmed) to patrol the borders, and were often controled by terrorists who threatened their lives.
Again I wont even talk about the security issues if the palestinians would of had control over israel.

3) Preservation of sites holy to religions. So far israel has proved how it can preserve holy sites. I doubt that the international community will do a worst job in preservation, so I guess the both are equal from this point of view. But again the palestinians are the worst choice even from this aspect.

4) Logistical problems. Jerusalem has been the capital of israel for a few decades now, and the city is already running on more or less optimal settings. The israeli infrastructures, and all that crap... Jerusalem has reached a certain status quo under israeli control. Violating it will only bring chaos and an uncertain future.

(unlike iraq's case, jerusalem's status quo is slowly moving towards a more peaceful side and ideal, so this process shouldnt be interrupted.)

International forces in control of jerusalem would mean turning jerusalem into an outpost in the middle of all that mess. Having an owners shift just like that will send the balance in jerusalem years back in time.

The owner shift solution is a 'right here right now quick and dirty' solution. I belive this problem should solve itself in a matter of decades if everything would be left as it is.

Some things just need some time to gently change themselves.
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Postby doormat » Tue May 03, 2005 3:38 pm

Ok, now you're seriously reaching. I had to read that post twice to be sure you weren't joking.

1) Experiance. I'll tell you who's real good at crowd control... China! We should give it to them! Be realistic. There is no magic crowd-generator in Jerusalem, and the Isreali's are no better at crowd control than anybody else.

2)Security. Newsflash- there's no magic terrorist-generator either. If the Isreali/Palistinian conflict were resolved (part of which would have to be a solution to the Jerusalem question) the terror attacks would not be such a problem. That's kinda like the Germans claiming they need to keep control of france's airbases to protect against all these British and American bombers that keep flying over. Freedom does not always result in terror.

3)Presevation. Sure. Aside from all the terrorist bombs and gunfire, the holy sites are quite safe. But I'm guessing you don't consider that Isreali occupation makes those any more likely.

4)Logistical Problems. Are you joking? You want to justify the occupation of Jerusalem on the basis that... you occupy Jerusalem? There's absolutly no reason why Isreal should not continue to site it's legislature in Jerusalem whilest the city is under international or shared soverinty. I imagine the Palastinians will want to do the same: there's enough space for both sets of buildings.

(unlike iraq's case, jerusalem's status quo is slowly moving towards a more peaceful side and ideal, so this process shouldnt be interrupted.)


You wish. There have been quite periods before, in times of firmer American engagement. It's a powder-keg and you know it.

Some things just need some time to gently change themselves.


You mean "if we wait long enough, prehaps the Palasinians will come to accept it." It's been almost 50 years: the issue is still sore. Is that likely to change? Not as long as the Koran is preached. It's a religious site: they arn't going to forget about it. That's like ignoring your bank statment in the hope that, if you don't read it, it won't be true.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Tue May 03, 2005 4:40 pm

Banker wrote:
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Umm. . . Politics is all philosophy. . . I'm rather at a loss as to how that is not entirely obvious.


I have to disagree, one's political views are usually based in your philosopfies.. But politics is about compromises.


Not neccessarily and besides it would be compromises based on philosophy so its still philosophical.
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Postby Curiosity » Tue May 03, 2005 5:11 pm

I support full Israeli control of Jerusalem. Let's be fair, muslims only want it because the Jews claim it. They have Mecca and Medina and numerous other holy sites. They can fuck right-off to those. Jerusalem is Jew-turf and so should be Israeli property. And I know this is a totally intolerant attitude but to be fair having your country fucked over for 57 years will give you that.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Tue May 03, 2005 5:21 pm

All three major religions have very strong claims to Jerusalem as a holy site. I think such intolerance is the root of the problem on both sides. There is no reason it has to be one or the other; this is not a zero sum game. All sides can win, and peaceful and open Jerusalem would let all sides claim victory.
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Postby Curiosity » Tue May 03, 2005 6:27 pm

Jerusalem is Israel's capital city. No other country is forced to have an 'open' capital with claims by other people.
I find it terrible hypocrisy from those who deny that the Jews have a religious and historical right to the land of Israel and then stake a claim to Jerusalem based on their historical and religious connection to it. Let's play history and religion, Israel is Jewish land and Jerusalem is the indivisible capital.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Tue May 03, 2005 6:43 pm

First, Jerusalem is not even legally an Israeli city. The fact that Israel claims it as such and then additionally claims it as its capital does not change that. Can a nation now claim any city to be its own and make it its captal? The Palestinians also claim Jerusalem to be the capital of the Palestinian state. That claim is just as valid as Israel's. Jerusalem is not just Jewish land, there have always been non-Jews there. It was a historic Jewish capital, but it has a long history of being a capital to a lot of people. Before King David conquered it for the Jews it was the Jebusite capital. There is no logical reason to favor one claim over the others. That is why I believe it would be best for it to be an international city (not just shared by Israel and Palestine, but by all people of the world).
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Postby doormat » Tue May 03, 2005 7:11 pm

I've said it before, and I'll say it again...

Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel.

Thank you.

If you want to use Jerusalem, fine. But you arn't "forced" to have an open capital, any more than you were "forced" to invade it.
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Postby Banker » Tue May 03, 2005 7:58 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote: Can a nation now claim any city to be its own and make it its captal? The Palestinians also claim Jerusalem to be the capital of the Palestinian state. That claim is just as valid as Israel's. Jerusalem is not just Jewish land, there have always been non-Jews there. It was a historic Jewish capital, but it has a long history of being a capital to a lot of people. Before King David conquered it for the Jews it was the Jebusite capital. There is no logical reason to favor one claim over the others. That is why I believe it would be best for it to be an international city (not just shared by Israel and Palestine, but by all people of the world).


Of course they can, hell even people should be able to..
Jerusalem is the capital of Bankerland! :roll:


Btw the palestinan claim is more legal then the israelites, they have lived there in majority for thousands of years, while there has only been many jews there for a few hundred.

You lost the land and especially the city 2000 years ago, deal with it, its not yours anymore.
Instead be happy that the world actually took pity on y'all and gave you some land at all.


Let the international community run it together or something, declare it international territory, cause almost every shitty religion there is claim it as theirs, let them all have it.

The only other fair alternative is letting nobody have it and leveling it to the ground, and I dont think you'd want that.
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Postby Curiosity » Tue May 03, 2005 8:06 pm

Actually, Jews were there thousands of years ago. You know, King David and such. Fucking retard. It was Jewish land and it always will be, we merely reclaimed what was taken from us. According to your logic, no-one has land if they get kicked out, does that mean that France really belonged to Germany?

Also, is Bankerland where all the gypsy scum live?
At least some countries on Earth like Jews. No-one likes gypsies, they've never contributed anything, anywhere. What a proud history.

And doormat, Jerusalme is Israel's capital. No Israeli thinks Tel Aviv is the capital and actually since Bush came in to office in the US, all US documents and such now refer to Jerusalem as the capital. The CIA World Factbook says Jerusalem is the capital (albeit with a note).

You making a decision thousands of miles away whilst knowing zip about the situation does not change the situation one iota. Jerusalem is still Israel's capital.
Last edited by Curiosity on Tue May 03, 2005 8:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby i still forgot my passwor » Tue May 03, 2005 8:09 pm

Banker is a fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfucking moron.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Tue May 03, 2005 8:15 pm

Like I said King David took Jerusalem from the Jebusites. The Jews were not the first people to occupy Jerusalem. The Jews were not the first ones to call Jerusalem their capital. The Jews were not the people to have held Jerusalem the longest. So why is the Jewish claim supposed to supercede all others (other than the fact that you are Jewish)? I see no logical reason for it myself.

Curiosity wrote:And doormat, Jerusalme is Israel's capital.


Heh,I don't even know where this "Jerusalme" is?

Internationally Jerusalem is not even considered an Israeli city, and definitely not its capital. What favor the US gives to Israel is another issue, the US does not control (or even abide by) International Law.
Last edited by Stewsburntmonkey on Tue May 03, 2005 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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