The end of riligion?

Anything and Everything about Uplink

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco, Chris, Icepick, Rkiver

User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:23 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Unpalatable things are unpalatable for a reason. Why, we may not know, but since you seem to want to break everything down to its pure physical state, the fact that these actions trigger chemical reactions such that we feel bad indicates that evolutionarily these things are bad in some fundamental way.
Incorrect. It does not mean they are bad in some fundemental manner, it merely means they are counterproductive as far as survival is concerned.

You need to substantiate the link between "counterproductive for survival/suffering" and fundemental evil/non-purpose.

Happiness is not a meaningless physical responce, it has its roots at the core of evolution and thus has inherent meaning. Your dismissal of it demonstrates a fundamental ignorance on your part reguarding evolution and fuction of sentience.
Hmm? I never claimed happiness wasn't important to survival, merely that it isn't any sort of 'purpose'. Regardless, you haven't provided any evidence for 'inherent meaning'. Survival is not meaning, it is simply the result of evolution - that is, a set of physical reactions occuring according to various laws, no more or less valuable than any other sequence of physical reactions.

You have to substantiate the link between survival / positive conditioning agents and fundemental good / purpose.

In any event you keep finding faults with others arguements but providing no real ideas of your own, which is a very unevolved way to debate.
Hmm? There is nothing wrong with finding faults in the arguments of others, if they are being used in some fundementally fallacious manner. I already provided my viewpoint: The universe as we currently understand it is completely and utterly purposeless. Thus, the only thing the human race can do that is of any importance whatsoever is attempt to determine:

1) What the definition of 'purpose' is
and
2) What our purpose is, if there is one.

That is, expanding our knowledge in hopes of finding purpose.

The pursuit of happiness - to attempt to get to a situation, where you get as much of those specific chemicals that cause happiness as possible, and remain happy.
You have to justify why that is 'purpose', and why other sequences of reactions - especially unpalatable ones - are not.
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:34 pm

What's so hard about understanding this, or are you just choosing to be a pain in the arse?

Purpose can, in this case be juxtaposed with goal. Happiness is a goal.

As you seem to insist everything is pointless overall, we have our subjective goals which become our purpose.

In my case, if I didn't have any other reason to live, Lara would be my reason to live, my purpose in a way. A purpose being something that is your reason to live.

So perhaps before you start denying all terms to get out of the argument, would you care to specificaly define EVERY term you use, so we can't say - "well what you're trying to say is all bollocks really".

I really shouldn't get so worked up about this, but I'm only inhuman..
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:38 pm

But again, then murder is just as valid a goal as happiness.

And that subjective happiness is still just a sequence of electrochemical reactions.

Where does the 'purpose' come from? What gives it inherent value?
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:59 pm

If murdering people induces happiness in you, and you choose the pursuit of happiness as your purpose, then amongst other things, murdering people would be one of your purposes.

Happiness is a series of electrochemical reactions, you said. That's relevant because?

The purpose is what the individual chooses, because as you say, there is no over-all purpose.

It has value because the individual places value in it.
TheDuke
level3
level3
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:10 pm
Location: USA

Postby TheDuke » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:07 pm

Jackmn wrote:But again, then murder is just as valid a goal as happiness.

And that subjective happiness is still just a sequence of electrochemical reactions.

Where does the 'purpose' come from? What gives it inherent value?

Everything needs a purpose, even if that purpose is merely "it is for it's own sake."

What is your purpose, Jackmn? If life (or anything else) has no purpose, then why do you still live and breathe?
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:07 pm

Happiness is a series of electrochemical reactions, you said. That's relevant because?
That is important because electrochemical reactions have no intrinsic value.

What is your purpose, Jackmn? If life (or anything else) has no purpose, then why do you still live and breathe?
I live because I am human, and all of my instincts and emotions tell me to survive. Not because I believe my existence to be something of value.

I am still a happy person, and I enjoy life. But I do not pretend that this happiness serves any purpose, or that my life is of any significance whatsoever.
Last edited by Jackmn on Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Adriac
level5
level5
Posts: 3504
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:20 am

Postby Adriac » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:11 pm

Jackmn- Whatever you might think you are not making any interesting or insightful comments. You're playing games with semantics to avoid addressing the actual discussion. Whether this is because you're too stupid to tell the difference or because you're just trolling is really up to you.
00010001000100000000101100010111000 10110000100010001100001011111000101 10000100100000111100010000000011010 0001011000111100001000100001011
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:12 pm

No Adriac, I am merely questioning the link between 'feeling good'/'what happens' and 'purpose'.

Neither you nor anybody in this thead has been capable of justifying this link.

Again, if everything we do is nothing more than the result of preprogrammed set of physical reactions, then from where does 'purpose' come?
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:20 pm

What do you expect us to say?

"A divine force came to us, proved it was a divine force, stated a purpose, justified it and made us believe in it"

Purpose, like most things, is subjective.

What do you mean they have no value? Nothing has value if taken like that.

They are valuable to us because without them we wouldn't be happy, and happyness is a desireable state BY DEFINITION. So you can't argue with that, because it would be similar to saying "doesn't eternal bliss get boring after a while?"

Everything doesn't need a purpose, however, if there is no other purpose then we can always fall back on the idea of "why not".

How do you expect us to justify something to you if you are unwilling to accept any justification?
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:24 pm

I simply want a justification that cannot be refuted.

Happiness is a desirable state, yes. But why is that 'purpose'?

What is the link between 'feeling good' and 'purpose'?
Stewsburntmonkey
level5
level5
Posts: 11553
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:44 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:25 pm

No one can prove that there is some purpose greater than survival, so I say at least we can say things are given purpose by their relation to survival and evolution. I am saying that at the very least that lends some purpose to things. You are a simple troll so I will not keep playing games with you, especially since everyone else seems to understand this. You on the other hand make no points and have choosen to simply be diffecult, which is all you seem to do really. It is rather pittiful how little you have to add to this discussion.
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:28 pm

That's a lame cop-out SBM, and you are as aware of it as I am.

Absolutely everything you have attempted to provide as purpose ( namely happiness ) has turned out to be unsubstantiated. You haven't even substantiated survival as purpose.

It's funny that when you can no longer provide irrefutable evidence for any true 'purpose' that I suddenly become a troll.

Appeal to crowd doesn't make your statements any more valid.
Last edited by Jackmn on Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:29 pm

Due to the subjective nature of our world, it isn't realistically possible to supply unrefutable justification.

You are human, you want to be happy. Being happy is your goal. The purpose of your life, apart from survival, is to obtain that goal.

That presumes that you have chosen the pursuit of happiness as your goal.

If you can't understand that, put that simply, then I don't see how you can possibly be intelligent enough to argue with.

Edit: no, you didn't suddenly *become* a troll. Many of us saw you as one earlier, we are just trying to be polite and give you a chance. Or so it would appear.
Last edited by Flamekebab on Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:31 pm

The question is one of value Flame. Why is happiness of any value? How does hedonistic pleasure grant it any value? Nothing in the universe is intrinsically more valuable than anything else in the universe. If you choose something to be your 'purpose', you are still accomplishing nothing of any true value.

The problem with 'purpose' is that it requires something irrefutable. Otherwise an endless asking of 'why' to every reason that's given is all that's needed to refute it.
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:35 pm

FUCKING HELL!

*bangs head againts wall*

You must really be enjoying this..

Happiness is of value because it is a desirable state, almost by definition.

Also "accomplishing something of true value" is impossible. This would be due to the nature of value, as A SUBJECTIVE VARIABLE!

There IS no true value according to you, as it is always subjective, therefore purpose cannot have true value. Therefore it has subjective value instead.

Do you have some sort of understanding problem?

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests