The end of riligion?

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Stewsburntmonkey
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:26 pm

As I have said before, everything, event sentience itself is just a series of electro mechanical reactions so apparently nothing matters. . .
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danielwellsfloyd
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Postby danielwellsfloyd » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:45 pm

One of the big things backing up religion instead of pure science, is the form the humans reproduce in. Scientists don't understand why humans didn't evovle, why all things didn't evolve to use asexual reproduction. In all ways it is more practical than sexual reproduction, as all the mother's traits are passed onto the child, so that all traits go to every child, not just half of here children.
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Flamekebab
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Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:49 pm

Therefore - why not happiness?

Happiness is fun, subjectively, so it appears to be a perfectly valid pursuit , applicable to the vast majority.

Therefore - why not!?
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Postby Rkiver » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:49 pm

Survival of the fittest and evolution has shown that sexual reproduction works better when there are two parents involved. Otherwise it is for all intents and purposes an advanced form of mitosis, and the offspring would be identical.

Having both a mother and a father means genes get mixed around a bit more, allowing for genetic experimentation and seeing if something different works.

Where you got the information regarding science and asexual reproduction from would seem to be flawed I'm afraid, though it does pose an interesting idea in it's purest form as a question of science.
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Jackmn
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Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:12 pm

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:As I have said before, everything, event sentience itself is just a series of electro mechanical reactions so apparently nothing matters. . .
Which is why the determination of:

1) The meaning of the word 'purpose'
and
2) Purpose itself

are the only two important things the human race has for itself.

Flamekebab wrote:Therefore - why not happiness?

Happiness is fun, subjectively, so it appears to be a perfectly valid pursuit , applicable to the vast majority.

Therefore - why not!?
Because happiness isn't a purpose. It simply happens.

Stating that happiness is purpose is no more logical than stating that killing people is purpose, or that suicide is purpose, or absolutely anything else in the universe is purpose.
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Postby Adriac » Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:33 pm

The pursuit of happiness, fucker. Don't play semantic games.

If you think happiness just happens, you must be one unhappy little boy.
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Stewsburntmonkey
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:02 pm

Yea, Jackmn has yet to define "purpose" so we might as well use what ever we want for it. "Happiness" is as good as any since evolution has made it a pleasurable feeling thus rewarding our acheivement of it, so there must be some greater good to it. Jackmn's philosophy allows for him to shoot any other ideas down, but provides no alternatives itself, so is rather flawed. It gives him some degree of power, but it is really illusionary. :)
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Postby Rkiver » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:06 pm

The thing is Stews, couldn't that just as well apply to religion?
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Flamekebab
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Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:22 pm

I am curious if Jackmn just says it to be an annoying arse, and knows we'll keep the argument going jus to disagree with him..

Happiness is a valid pursuit.

The point is to be happy.

We're already raping the earth of it's resources and multiplying uncontrollably, so what do YOU think the purpose is?

"I don't know" isn't a valid answer, unfortunately for you.

Suggest something or state that alternatives suggested are possible, but don't say "I don't know".
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Jackmn
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Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:26 pm

Adriac wrote:The pursuit of happiness, fucker. Don't play semantic games.

If you think happiness just happens, you must be one unhappy little boy.
The persuit of happiness is a pre-programmed set of instincts - a set of neurochemical reactions. That is, it just happens. It serves no more 'purpose' than a falling stone, a rolling ball, or any other physical reaction in the universe.
Flamekebab wrote:I am curious if Jackmn just says it to be an annoying arse, and knows we'll keep the argument going jus to disagree with him..

Happiness is a valid pursuit.

The point is to be happy.

We're already raping the earth of it's resources and multiplying uncontrollably, so what do YOU think the purpose is?

"I don't know" isn't a valid answer, unfortunately for you.

Suggest something or state that alternatives suggested are possible, but don't say "I don't know".
Which is why the determination of:

1) The meaning of the word 'purpose'
and
2) Purpose itself

are the only two important things the human race has for itself.
Also, I again bring up that happinessis no more or less valid than murder as purpose, with all the qualification you have given.


SBM wrote:so there must be some greater good to it
You have to provide evidence for that.

With all the qualification you have provided, absolutely anything in the universe can be given as 'purpose', including unpalatable things I'm sure you wouldn't agree with.
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Flamekebab
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Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:38 pm

Erm. Happiness IS a purpose.

The pursuit of happiness - to attempt to get to a situation, where you get as much of those specific chemicals that cause happiness as possible, and remain happy.

If you don't understand the concept of happiness then, well, you're just fucked up, and not even in an interesting or amusing way..

So, there is no overall purpose, that doesn't mean we can't as individuals of a species have our own subjective purposes.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:45 pm

Unpalatable things are unpalatable for a reason. Why, we may not know, but since you seem to want to break everything down to its pure physical state, the fact that these actions trigger chemical reactions such that we feel bad indicates that evolutionarily these things are bad in some fundamental way. Evolution has shaped our mind in such a way that it rewards beneficial behavior and punishes bad behavior. Eating makes us feel good, because that incourages us to eat (and thus keep on living), sex is so pleasurable because it is the thing that allows for the species continued survival. I could go on, but you should get the point. Happiness is not a meaningless physical responce, it has its roots at the core of evolution and thus has inherent meaning. Your dismissal of it demonstrates a fundamental ignorance on your part reguarding evolution and fuction of sentience. In any event you keep finding faults with others arguements but providing no real ideas of your own, which is a very unevolved way to debate.

Rkiver: Religion presents an obvious alternative, that is the purpose of life is to serve the higher power or act in ways that are in accord with it.
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Postby Rkiver » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:52 pm

Serve a higher power? Surely a higher power would be better served if it gave us clear indications, and no religion has ever provided clear indications of what this higher power wants.
Ok sure some would argue the Ten Commandments, but didn't Jesus go and essentially say ignore the old testament, or am I mistkaing that with someone else.

Regardless to some people, they need religion at some basic level, as it fills something in their minds, in that respect it is good. But personally I don't find comfort in religion, I usually find intolerence of others there for some reason. Live and let live is the best policy to have, and, as I am so fond of saying, you can have any religious beliefs you want as long as they don't impinge on the rights of others, and you don't shove them down my throat.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:06 pm

Jesus just taught love and compasion for all (God above all) and layed out a devote and loving way of life. Nearly all religions have a fairly clear outline of what it means to serve God or what way of life is proper and righteous. These clearly define what they believe the purpose of life is.

However most "crazy Christians" (the hardcore zealots) look mostly at the Old Testament (an eye for an eye, conquering holy armies, etc) and the book of Revelation (judgement day, death, doom, etc). They seem to forget about other stuff (love thy neighboor, etc). They find that the absolutes (as they read them) given in the Bible provide an order to their life they are missing otherwise. They enjoy the power of judgement they feel they aquire as "good Christians" and feel they can sheild themself from the uncertainties and hardships of the world through their religion. This is not only a Christian thing, this happens in nearly every religion (see Islamic Fundamentalism, Jewish Fundamentalism, etc). I would argue these people are cowering behind their religion and perverting its message to suit their own desires. I do not feel that is the true religion.
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Postby Rkiver » Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:17 pm

Oh I agree with you there. The bible bashers, and the others from other religions that are similar have indeed perverted the religions to suit there own ends, but then again they are only human. :wink:
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