The end of riligion?

Anything and Everything about Uplink

Moderators: bert_the_turtle, jelco, Chris, Icepick, Rkiver

Stewsburntmonkey
level5
level5
Posts: 11553
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:44 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:09 pm

I see no conflicts with science. I am a devout scientist and also devoutly spiritual (Christian with other religions/philosophies). :)
User avatar
danielwellsfloyd
level2
level2
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:33 pm

Postby danielwellsfloyd » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:12 pm

Rkiver wrote:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is based on the Moromon beliefs? Ok right there and then I give up on it.


1. It's "Mormon" unless that was a typo

2. Our religion is not based on Mormon beliefs, it is Mormon beliefs. "Mormon" was a nickname given to the Latter-day Saints in the early years of the Church because of the "Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ." Mormon is a term usually associated with a fanatic with 10 wives, which is not what we are. We have been attempting to throw out the old nickname and get more people to call us Latter-day Saints, which is a more correct term, and so far our efforts have been working very well.
Rkiver
level5
level5
Posts: 6405
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:39 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Rkiver » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:14 pm

Well how about Genesis being touted as "Gospel Truth and what really happened"? I mean being a scientist you have to see that Creationism is not even near what happened as proved by the fossil records and other information found out by studying the universe?

Also religion as a whole is based on faith, science on theories backed up by proof, and facts. Sure if we had indisputable that say one version of religion was correct, wouldn't faith itself not be needed? Then again I think I am just confusing myself. Too many hours in work and no stimulation....


And danielswellflood in that case with it being Mormon, or now Church of Jesus Christ and the Latter-day Saints, well I imagine you are used to people questioning your beliefs on the finding of a gold book (it was a gold book, viewed in a hat, that no others were allowed to see. Didn't South Park do a episode about this?), in America. Personally I find it laughable, but if you gain strength from your beliefs, and don't shove it down others throats (The whole missionary thing aside), more power to you. As long as you are happy in yourself and your faith it's all good.
Last edited by Rkiver on Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Uplink help: Read the FAQ
Darksun
level5
level5
Posts: 6461
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 7:08 pm
Location: 127.0.0.1

Postby Darksun » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:15 pm

A little late here, but it annoys me when people say things like 'without religion, most of the wars today wouldn't be fought'. While it's true many conflicts of the day are based on religion at first glance, deep down they are political, and wars would still be fought with or without religion. Religion doesn't cause then, religion is just abused as a front for the wars.

Like Stewsburntmonkey, I see no reason why science and religion can't coexist. To me, in some ways, science is a very spiritual thing - when you look at the wonders and mysteries of the universe, you can't help but wonder if there are higher powers and higher existances in play.
Stewsburntmonkey
level5
level5
Posts: 11553
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:44 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:18 pm

Well many if not most Christian don't take the Bible as a history rather a guide and fable. Most people don't take it literally. Those who do are a bit out there, and I certainly don't agree with them. However who is to say God did not create a fossil record when he create the earth? Or that the days of creation are not percieved by us as millions of years? In any event I and many Christians don't hold with Creationism and accept evolution as fact.
Mas Tnega
level5
level5
Posts: 7898
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2002 11:54 pm
Location: Edinburgh
Contact:

Postby Mas Tnega » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:33 pm

1. The fossil record thing is mentioned in The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy. The Magratheans (sp?) put the fossils on Earth themselves when they were making it.

2. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

If you were to say that in creation, a day is an age (as in, "in my day", and such), you could argue that really only every 7th AGE is for all the holy stuff, and people are actually being very silly every Sunday. That, or the Bible is starting to look slightly poetic with its double meanings.
Stewsburntmonkey
level5
level5
Posts: 11553
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:44 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:39 pm

Slightly poetic? Large chunks of the Bible are purely poetry.

However what if a day to God was an age or a million years or whatever. Then He may simply be instructing people to take a break in terms relative to their perception of time. Although much of the Old Testament is rather mythical and should probably be taken as such. :)
Last edited by Stewsburntmonkey on Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
vladimir
level2
level2
Posts: 117
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:04 am
Location: United States
Contact:

Postby vladimir » Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:11 pm

The biggest difference between all people IS religion.
Vodka is good,
Vodka is great,
Go get some vodka and stay up late.

My drinking is fast,
My drinking is hard,
My drinking is a trait I learned from a man in the old guard.
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:15 am

Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Well many if not most Christian don't take the Bible as a history rather a guide and fable. Most people don't take it literally. Those who do are a bit out there, and I certainly don't agree with them. However who is to say God did not create a fossil record when he create the earth? Or that the days of creation are not percieved by us as millions of years? In any event I and many Christians don't hold with Creationism and accept evolution as fact.
Then the question remains - why even bother with the faith in the first place? It serves no purpose beyond the happiness of the individual.

It does not give us insight into the workings of the universe, it does not benefit society in any manner irrepreducable by more logical alternatives, and it does it help us in our quest for - true - purpose in any manner whatsoever.

The happiness of the individual is insufficient justification for mass mysticism.
Adriac
level5
level5
Posts: 3504
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2002 7:20 am

Postby Adriac » Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:46 am

Jackmn wrote:
Stewsburntmonkey wrote:Well many if not most Christian donThen the question remains - why even bother with the faith in the first place? It serves no purpose beyond the happiness of the individual.

It does not give us insight into the workings of the universe, it does not benefit society in any manner irrepreducable by more logical alternatives, and it does it help us in our quest for - true - purpose in any manner whatsoever.

The happiness of the individual is insufficient justification for mass mysticism.


Actually, it's a much better justification than many you could make.

Bottom line, what purpose is there to sentience if not happiness?
00010001000100000000101100010111000 10110000100010001100001011111000101 10000100100000111100010000000011010 0001011000111100001000100001011
Stewsburntmonkey
level5
level5
Posts: 11553
Joined: Wed Jul 10, 2002 7:44 pm
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:09 am

People are not logical. It would certainly make things easier if they were, but they are not. A purely logical world wouldn't much fun anyways. Religion brought people together at a time when little else could. Religion provides continuity, leaders and philosophies come and go, as do organizations built upon them, however a God real or imagined is eternal and so provides a bond between people that lasts as long as their belief does. This has allowed for organizations and communities that have weathered the ages while staying steady course. Religion has provided for the stability of nations and the stability of populations. This is key component of civilization, though may like Jackmn will overlook it. The ability of religion to transcend (or avoid) logic gives it a power science will never have. It grabs hold of the non-logical aspects of man. Science and faith are complements as either one alone is wasted. In any event personal happiness is all that we seek. What good is knowledge if it is not enjoyed, or money that is not spent? It is happiness that is the goal of society whether stated or unstated.
User avatar
danielwellsfloyd
level2
level2
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:33 pm

Postby danielwellsfloyd » Sat Jul 17, 2004 6:14 am

Jackmn wrote:It does not give us insight into the workings of the universe, it does not benefit society in any manner irrepreducable by more logical alternatives, and it does it help us in our quest for - true - purpose in any manner whatsoever.


Funny how all these questions are answered by the Churh of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have insight into the workings of the universe. It's actually quite complex and amazing. But I'm afraid I can't give you too much info as some things are sacred. Please don't take the former sentence as if I am teasing you.
User avatar
Flamekebab
level5
level5
Posts: 2979
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2002 5:39 pm
Location: Cambridge, UK
Contact:

Postby Flamekebab » Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:54 am

*makes disbeliefing amused noises*

You can keep your religion!

I'm amazed enough by the complexity of the world on so many levels, every day, or at least when I am awake enough..

Yawn, I should stop trying to make sense.

Basically, I am trying to say - "Your religion is like that is it? Reeeeally. How nice for you. Byeee."
Rkiver
level5
level5
Posts: 6405
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:39 am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Postby Rkiver » Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:12 pm

danielwellsfloyd wrote:
Jackmn wrote:It does not give us insight into the workings of the universe, it does not benefit society in any manner irrepreducable by more logical alternatives, and it does it help us in our quest for - true - purpose in any manner whatsoever.


Funny how all these questions are answered by the Churh of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have insight into the workings of the universe. It's actually quite complex and amazing. But I'm afraid I can't give you too much info as some things are sacred. Please don't take the former sentence as if I am teasing you.



Technically said knowledge such as that should be shared for the betterment of mankind. if it's true that is. You must remember they are your beliefs, and just because your religion explains the universe in one way, does not make it any more, or any less, valid then say current scientific theory, or indeed another belief systems explanation.

Personally I think I am going to dig a bit more into your beliefs, mainly because I like learning about new religions, and finding common threads between all of them. Also adding to it that I have never met a member of The Church Of Jesus Christ and The Latter Day Saints who was not actually a nice polite person, it leads me to wonder what sort of belief system could lead to such, well, niceness.
Last edited by Rkiver on Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Uplink help: Read the FAQ
User avatar
Jackmn
level5
level5
Posts: 1378
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2002 5:21 pm

Postby Jackmn » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:59 pm

Adriac wrote:Actually, it's a much better justification than many you could make.

Bottom line, what purpose is there to sentience if not happiness?
What is the purpose of sentience with happiness?

Happiness is nothing more than an evolved conditioning agent. A sequence of electrochemical reactions. It neither provides nor helps in the discovery of true purpose.

unny how all these questions are answered by the Churh of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. We have insight into the workings of the universe. It's actually quite complex and amazing. But I'm afraid I can't give you too much info as some things are sacred. Please don't take the former sentence as if I am teasing you.
Without evidence, your 'insights' are nothing more than arbitrary claims.

I could claim that the purpose of life is hurting others, and it would be just as valid as your own beliefs.

Return to “General”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests