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Katana Steel
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Postby Katana Steel » Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:11 am

Quote: from Coldfire26 on 9:16 am on Dec. 11, 2003[br]MH: yup, just 1 thing, when something DOESN'T occupy it it doesn't exist.


That's Like saying: "there is nothing on the road, therefore the road isn't there".
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:20 pm

Quote: from Coldfire26 on 6:42 pm on Dec. 10, 2003[br]Of course not: The Real vaccum Exists outside the universe, there is no outside the universe, so in other words the vaccum doesn't exist, And as vaccum means non-existence it has t not-exist. pure logic. :)


pure logic?  read my lips:    :\ :\ :\  , wtf?

what the hell is real vacuum?

vacuum means space without matter in it.  when you said that molecules matter (from which the box is made) would be 'given' to the vacuum, you were very very wrong, and i understand why you made that mistake.

the reason that vacuum gives the 'sucking' affect is easely explainable. since 'vacuum' means space without matter, its logical to assume that the pressure in that portion of space = 0 (since there is nothing that can make pressure against anyhting else).  now , matter which exists in high pressures strives to move to areas with lower pressure.  add the two together , and you'll get:

if the box is'nt surrounded by gases (gases that are bounded of cource) no pressure forces will be applyed on the box since space doesnt suck on itself...

like i already said, you must defind the way you use the terms 'existance' and 'non-existance'.  the lack of matter in space doesnt mean non-existance.  so there we have it,  you using the name of logic on senseless words.

anyways, read what i said about existance and non-existance in page 5, you probably skipped it...
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Postby Coldfire26 » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:52 pm

OK, time to sum this up in that type of huge posts i hate so much (typing...)

This in my opinion, to who doesn't understand it:

I consider the entire space as an endless field, Inside the field there are pieces of matter flouting in a single group called 'Container', that represents the current limit of the universe, what is out side it, doesn't count as a part of the universe, matter cannot exist outside it, because it cannot exist in something that is not a container, now while the 'container' itself ie expanding and matter is produced continuesly, the matter CANNOT escape the box, since if it trys it just pushes the box's limits larger, and while occuping more area, it cannot exist this shell. now, let us look inside the shell, what we have there is matter, matter with limits, matter with nothing, but still matter, now we can clearly measure the amo0unt of non-matter, because we have the tools we measure with, the matter is a number, substracted from the total maximum number of the current holds of the 'shell', and we get the result of nothing inside the shell. now, what we got isn't nothing, as we thought, but HOW MUCH MATTER can occupy it. the amount of nothing WILL ALL WAYS BE 0, as all the nothing inside the case will sum up to 0 counter of existence (call them Xs in short), in other words with have just recived the number of Potential Matter that can be contained inside the 'shell' if the forces at work would allow it, which they don't. the matter has to spread and take more and more space to exist. BUT if there were no forces of nature stopping it, we could of had an infinetly small, infinetly commpressed chunk of matter, in which total Q would rule.

all that cut short, we cannot measure nothing, simply because nothing is always 0, and measuring Potential Matter is just potential, and works AS IF we were using actual matter. THUS - to consider SPACE we have to occupy it with matter.

BTW, ALL the nothingness was devoid of ALL existence.

and Torm, i guess you mean the stuff you said in P6, and that wasn't really about that, you just flamed me. :/
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Postby Ami Kato » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:57 pm

Aww... ToRm hurt Coldfire's fifis...

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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:59 pm

So why on earth have you been arguing about it all this time.  The whole thing you kept rejecting was that space was infinite and that it existed outside the Universe.  No one cares about all this potential matter stuff you just made up.  Your arguements don't seem to match what you just said.  The whole time you refused to accept space exists outside the Universe, now all of the sudden you do (which is great), but I a flumuxed as to why you kept arguing against something you profess to accept.  

The reason matter and energy don't exist (as far as we know) outside the Universe is that the Universe is growing at the speed of light, thus nothing can pass beyond it without moving faster than the speed of light (currently thought to be a fixed barrier).  :)
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:02 pm

wait wait, now you got me.

what do you mean by universe?

why the hell should it expand, and where does it expand? what bounds the universe? where can space expand? isnt it infinit?
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Postby Ami Kato » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:06 pm

ToRmEnToR: Multiverse - there is an idea of multiple universes in quantum.

as one universe's energy declines, it is easier to muscle out by younger universes...

This is where Coldfire's argument fail horribly... that "space" outside this universe would be taken by other universes. Thus, by his definition, there would be NO SUCH THING as a true vacuum.
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:06 pm

oh and btw, scientists now think that there are particles which travel at speeds way beyond the speed of light called Tachyons.  if these particles will be found, they wll probably be used as means of instant comunications over the galaxy....
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Postby ToRmEnToR » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:08 pm

Quote: from Ami Kato on 7:06 pm on Dec. 11, 2003[br]ToRmEnToR: Multiverse - there is an idea of multiple universes in quantum.

as one universe's energy declines, it is easier to muscle out by younger universes...


to tell you the truth, it sounds like crazy nonsense to me :\

what ever happend to simple and logical ideas? must we build a plane with 50 wings even though it needs only 2 in order to fly?


(Edited by ToRmEnToR at 7:09 pm on Dec. 11, 2003)
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:08 pm

u·ni·verse
n.
All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.


It appears the Universe originated from a single point in space, after the original creation (Big Bang) it is obvious it had to expand since light was given off so it expands at the speed of light.  The Universe is bound by the sphere created by multiplying the time since the Big Bang by the speed of light.  I think we have finally agreed that while matter and energy may only exist within this limit, space is infinite even though it may be devoid of matter or energy.  :)
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Postby Miah » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:09 pm

...if we ever (a) find these particles, or (b) find someone to talk to way the hell over there...

EDIT: I would like to see that acticle...

(Edited by Miah Helpmann at 1:09 pm on Dec. 11, 2003)
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Postby Coldfire26 » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:13 pm

SBM: huh, well some of the stuff you said got me thinking. thought i did stick with the actual arguement, just tried to show it in a diffren way. the space outside the universe symbolizes Potential matter, which isn't something i made up, since it is not currently matter, thus it is potential. anyway, we still need matter to measure it, as how the hell are you going to show its existence by nothing?

Ami: If there are, than it wouldn't be nothing... :)

Torm: There is no proof they exist, though i believe so, but it doesn't mean BY FAR instant transmission, as they don't move in infinetly fast speeds, anyway i consider Tachyons as particles with negative mass, as they reject gravity other than recive it. instant communication CAN be possible, though using the curves and reaps of space.

EDIT: for the outside of the universe to exist, you don't need nothing, as it is, nothing.

AND you have to except the expanding universe, unless you presume that it WAS there before the big bang?

(Edited by Coldfire26 at 9:15 pm on Dec. 11, 2003)
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Postby Ami Kato » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:20 pm

You missed the entire damn point of the post...

your being an idiot, you even tell ToRm that there's no proof of Tachyons... where the hell is your proof???
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:24 pm

We are not worried with measuring nothing (it is infinite thus defies measurement).  All we (I) said was that space is infinite.  This in turn means space does not need matter or energy to "exist" (though symantically to exists you must be able to "not exist" which would be impossible for space as we know it).  Space can be defined as the potential location of matter or energy if you like.  :)
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Postby Coldfire26 » Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:24 pm

I don't have proof. i believe they exist until i find proof that they do or do not.

EDIT: Torm didn't hurn my fillin, i just corrected him from misreguard to his post.

(Edited by Coldfire26 at 9:25 pm on Dec. 11, 2003)
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