To all you lovers of Visual Basic

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Postby UAStaff » Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:52 am

I learned QBasic, it's a fun language, I'm at the top of my class right now because of it.



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Postby Superpig » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:08 pm

I wrote my first real games in QBasic. Mode 13h Scorched Earth clone, complete with mouse support.

The 64K limit just makes things more interesting, it's like programming for a console. :P
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Postby Deepsmeg » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:28 pm

The thing is...
Now we have huge computers, huge disks and everything, people get sloppy.
You talk about optimisation, but not many of the big boys seem to worry about it.
Games now can take up gigs of diskspace...
The good ol' days of the Spectrum where you had 48K of RAM to play with... THOSE were the days when coders were at their best. They couldn't afford to be sloppy. I have a quite good (for the hardware) 3D package for the spectrum. Which is 48K big...
Why? Because the coders weren't sloppy. They didn't code through cheap hacks and bloated code. They streamlined their code and made it good.

NOw though, it is far too easy for people to say "Your code is bad because you wrote it in X. You should code in Y if you want optimal code."
and then their app turns out to be bloody huge...
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:47 pm

There has certainly been a trade off made between coding efficency and runtime effeciency (and size).  Although there were crap hacks back in the day too.  Although recently I have been very impressed with games like Freelancer, which is very small and efficient given its decent graphics and gameplay.  

There is also generally a trade off between speed and size, with better systems many coders make bigger programs that run faster (or do more in the same amount of time).  :)


(Edited by Stewsburntmonkey at 12:48 pm on Dec. 10, 2003)
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Postby Iris » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:47 pm

Quote: from Deepsmeg on 11:28 am on Dec. 10, 2003[br]NOw though, it is far too easy for people to say "Your code is bad because you wrote it in X. You should code in Y if you want optimal code."
and then their app turns out to be bloody huge...


exactly, which is why i said, a coder's bragging rights is only as good as the actual code he churns out. just because somebody programs in C doesn't mean his code is better than someone who does it in compiled Basic, Visual Basic or what not. of course it helps to know that your code will be smaller, like C. then again, what good is a programming language that can come up with real tight code if the user spends months or years before he can come up with a decent program that he can understand and enjoy doing?
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Postby Jackmn » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:55 pm

A good programmer can code quickly in c.

C produces faster, more efficient code.

Basic code - no matter how well optimized - is doomed to run slowly, since it's very syntax lends itself to poorly optimized ASM.

NOw though, it is far too easy for people to say "Your code is bad because you wrote it in X. You should code in Y if you want optimal code."
and then their app turns out to be bloody huge...
Hmm? C creates smaller programs, with faster code. What is your logic? It's data files that take up the vast majority of space (>95%) in any game nowadays.
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:01 pm

Programming quickly and programming well are generally the antithesis of each other in any language.  Coding a simple GUI program will almost always be faster in VB than C, but in large scale, robust, applications, C/C++ will almost always win.  I still think it is stupid to insist on one language alone, each has its niche, use which ever is most appropriate for the task.  :)
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Postby Jackmn » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:11 pm

VB has no niche.

Small, quickly designed GUI apps can be done by Delphi, and it produces faster code.

A good c++ prorammer has an extensive personal library of code, which should include a framework for a quick GUI.
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Postby Deepsmeg » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:14 pm

I agree
As I said to my work experience manager yesterday on the subject of you kind of people. Looking at YOU here Jackmn...
C is brilliant, C is wondeful, etc
As SBM says, each language has its strengths and WEAKNESSES.
I wouldn't use VB to make a device driver.
I wouldn't use C(++) to make a graphical application that integrates with an ODBC source over an ADO connection. I'd use VB for that one.
I wouldn't use C(++) to make a website. I don't think it's POSSIBLE to. You can make a C app that listens on port 80 and returns hardcoded webpages, but the data sent isn't C or anything...
Oh look! I found something that C(++) just can't do! Sorry, bud. I guess it isn't so super that it can do everything after all...
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:16 pm

I am a good C++ programmer and I still use VB when I just need a quick GUI app (almost never but still).  With such an app speed doesn't matter (well not the little speed I would gain from Delphi or whatever).  I still think programming language snobbery is silly and stupid and the sign of a programmer who is not as good as he thinks.  I like ragging on VB, but I use it every once in a while and am generally happy with the results.  Using C for a quick and dirty GUI app is like using a sledgehammer to drive in a nail, there is no point.  But if you want to do it will work well.  Efficiency is not god, any programmer who does not know that is not at the level they should be.  :)

(Edited by Stewsburntmonkey at 1:17 pm on Dec. 10, 2003)
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Postby Iris » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:18 pm

Quote: from Jackmn on 12:11 pm on Dec. 10, 2003[br]
A good c++ prorammer has an extensive personal library of code, which should include a framework for a quick GUI.


no doubt, but not all people who wants to make a program don't have the time nor the interest to deal with the intricacies of PEEK and POKE, there are those who would just want to do something a little more interesting than HELLO WORLD, which they had fun doing and are happy with that. that is why they are given alternatives to what tools they use, but to downplay their abilities and intentions because the language they use is not the same as yours is a bit too much, if i should say, harsh?

(Edited by Iris at 12:20 pm on Dec. 10, 2003)
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Postby Katana Steel » Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:29 pm

Any good Programmer should know (many)some different languages and know when to use which.
Not just say this is best for everything, cause no
single programming language is the best, but a combo
of 2-3 different languages might be what is needed.
And (Visual)Basic could surely be one of them.
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Postby Jackmn » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:06 pm

I have extensive knowledge of VB; it was my language of choice prior to moving to C.

intricacies of PEEK and POKE
Peek and poke are neither part of C/C++, nor are the part of any recent basic implementation. Wtf are you talking about?

I wouldn't use C(++) to make a website. I don't think it's POSSIBLE to. You can make a C app that listens on port 80 and returns hardcoded webpages, but the data sent isn't C or anything...
Oh look! I found something that C(++) just can't do! Sorry, bud. I guess it isn't so super that it can do everything after all...
Hmm? Apache, the primary web server software, is written in a combination of C and scripting languages. HTML isn't a programming language; it's a markup language. The data sent is plaintext, fully parsable by C. Are you even a programmer? Any programmer worth his/her salt would have known this.

I've never advertised soley using C in any case, idiot.

I've mearly bashed using slow, inefficient languages - that fill their own niche poorly - in it's steed.

Everything VB can do, Delphi can do just as easily, and with a much faster execution time. Thus, there is no excuse for using VB.

Quote:
======
I wouldn't use C(++) to make a graphical application that integrates with an ODBC source over an ADO connection. I'd use VB for that one.
=======
There are publically available libraries that allow C/C++ to do this easily, with a much faster execution time than VB. Also, Delphi can do this, again with a faster execution time.

There is no excuse for releasing inefficient code to the public.


(Edited by Jackmn at 1:07 pm on Dec. 10, 2003)
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Postby Stewsburntmonkey » Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:21 pm

I wouldn't release VB to the public, but in private it is very easy to use.  I have used Delphi and prefer VB to it in almost every instance.  It is largely a matter of personal preference.  While VB is certainly not the most efficient language, most applications are not efficiency dependant and like Iris said efficiency is much more influenced by a programmers skill than the language itself.  For those time sensitive projects, high volume CGI, AI, natual language processing, high end 3D graphics, physical simulations, etc. you need every millisecond the language can give you and then it is C or Assembly, but very few people are doing those types of projects.  

Not everyone is or wants to be a programming wiz.  Not everyone is releasing code to the public.  For these people the intracies of some of the more powerful languages are hinderances to enjoyment and learning, so VB is there for them.  For others VB will do what they want and they are comfortable with it so they will use it.  Just because a language is not the most efficient does not mean it fills its niche poorly.  If it did fill its niche poorly people would not use it.  Not everyone has the same requirements for a language, assuming they do is rather narrow minded.  Many tech people lose touch with the non-tech world and that is sad.  Not everyone using a computer or programming is a techie.  :)
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Postby Iris » Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:44 am

Quote: from Jackmn on 1:06 pm on Dec. 10, 2003[br]
intricacies of PEEK and POKE
Peek and poke are neither part of C/C++, nor are the part of any recent basic implementation. Wtf are you talking about?(Edited by Jackmn at 1:07 pm on Dec. 10, 2003)


i did not mention it was a C command, but Basic at low level commands. take a closer look at the compilers in that website and you will see those 2 still exists. that's the f i'm talking about.

(Edited by Iris at 3:53 am on Dec. 11, 2003)
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