Possible answer for DEV CD users

[Lexxicon]

A whyle back i found a page called Dan's 20th century Abondonware http://home.pmt.org/~drose/aw.html I is an archive describing different sors of software that is not sold anymore and is legally free. On this page http://home.pmt.org/~drose/aw-win9x-16.html it states that Visual Studio is now free software. If anyone can verify these contents i believe this thread will help the uplink community immencly <-- bad spelling

Basically i am looking for facts and opinions to see if this is a viable alternative to freeware.


You may also note that at the bottom of the page it says certain vb5 files are not abandoneware untill september 2004.              It used to say that visual studio was not abandonware untill a certain date also. I believe that that date has already passed. That being the reason it is not htere anymore.

: )

[SAE]

It says thats the rules under US law.  What About in the UK?

[Lexxicon]

As fas as i know as long as it isn't licences anymore it is free everywhere. that includes the UK.

: )

[Adriac]

Hem. Gotta read between the lines a bit.

Software is only "true" abandonware (free) when the copyright holder expressly deems it so- Just because I no longer support early versions of my software, you can't steal it. You must still obtain a legal license to use it.

He says it himself- "abandonware" != "freeware". Microsoft doesn't support it any more, but it's no more legal to steal it.

That site is just a library- a directory, even -of software you won't see on their web site but is still very serviceable. It is NOT an archive of free software.

Hope that cleared it up a bit

[edit]
Dunno where the "five years" thing came from. That's not in any copyright law I know of.
[/edit]

(Edited by Adriac at 4:55 pm on Aug. 2, 2003)

[Lexxicon]

Then is it possible to get a free licence? And Could/Would we be charged if we got the software somwhere else. And doesnt microsoft have the new visual studio out neways why would they care.


(Edited by Lexxicon at 10:01 pm on Aug. 2, 2003)

[Adriac]

If and only if the software is on its original media is the software legal. That is, a download or burnt disc is illegal no matter how you obtain it, but as long as it's the Microsoft CD you're clear no matter how you bought it.

So if you can get it at a garage sale for $5, god speed. But then, that's true of any software.

[Darksun]

Well, most international copy right laws state that a copyright holder retains copyright for 100 years (I think), although this can be extended. It's a large and complex area. Abandonware isn't legal (unless its done officially by the company, like in the case of the original GTA),

[Adriac]

I think he's operating under a less legal definition... Software that's abandoned by the author(s), regardless of legal license status.

[Lexxicon]

I believe that it may be possible to legally own the software. Possible votes to Microsoft. Checking the existing legalities. And determining if it is actually illegal to use and or copy software that isnt commercially purchasable from the original developer ( In this case Microsoft ) . I believe that it would easily be negotiated to make microsoft visual studio 6 free software.

[Adriac]

Just ask one simple question first- what's in it for them?

I mean, basically what you're saying is that they should yield their IP rights to this software because they aren't making anything from it. But that wouldn't bring them any income.

No, wait, it gets worse - this is a version we're talking about, not a unique program, and Microsoft's business model relies on people purchasing the latest version of their software whether they really need it or not.

Customer: "Hmm... I may not need all the latest features, and VS7 is expensive, but I think it's worth it, it looks pretty good... Hey, what's this? VS6 is freeware! Screw that!"

Frankly, not gonna happen. It'd just be a bad business move for them. Hate to say it, but it's a very naive wish

[Lexxicon]

Not necessarily. Pretty much the only people who get the Studio r people who own large companies who want that technical edge. If they were to release the studio in it's separate packs such as C++ j# vb6 all separatly to degrade from the ease of use it would be verry viable. for exaple in vs 2003 everything is super fast never has problems and makes programming fast easy fun and supports not only microsofts buisiness model but other buisiniss' models also It is somthing you would want if you have a company and wish to develope software and make money from it. if it was to release visual studio 6 in separate packages to introduce people into programming not million dollar industries it would not create any problems for microsoft but would act as a demo ( if somone made a kickass game such as a real TC for uplink with nu features and they earned enough money i am betting that they would buy the new visual studio. especially if it was alot easyer to do what they are doing ( i know i would) ) so if they would make a modded set of compilers that can be used to make the occasional program they and US would all be happey. sry for going on so long just saying it can work.

: )

[Octavious]

He says it himself- "abandonware" != "freeware". Microsoft doesn't support it any more, but it's no more legal to steal it.

Just to be an arse, "!=" is a comparitive, not a startement of fact.

Also, abandonware is not technically legal until the copyright has expired; as a "copyright" is just that, a right to copy. If someone else owns the copyright to a piece of software, you cannot legally copy it. But just as this law is generally ignored if you would like to photocopy a book for your own use, no one will care if you steal a licence to software which is no longer profitable to anyone.

[Adriac]

Quote: from Octavious on 10:42 pm on Aug. 2, 2003[br]

He says it himself- "abandonware" != "freeware". Microsoft doesn't support it any more, but it's no more legal to steal it.

Just to be an arse, "!=" is a comparitive, not a startement of fact.

True, but irrelevant I was saying, "is not equal to", not "is not being defined as" (Which is a silly thing to say in any case...)

Tangentially:
"=" is "equals" - a definition. 2 + 2 = 4 <-- no question about it, always true. Or in algebra- 4x^2 + 3x -2 = y <-- always true (The problem is not to make it equal, but to figure out why it is equal.
In contrast, "==" is "is equal to", a comparitive. x == 2 <-- true or false, depending on whether x is really equal to 2 or not. In conversation, it's always assumed that the output is true, e.g., "apples" != "oranges" <-- Just say it out, apples are not equal to oranges. Works fine. If I say, Adriac == 1337, I'm saying that I'm 1337, not calling my 1337ness into question. To say "Adriac = 1337" would be defining myself as 1337, which I'm not sure I want to do
[edit]
Upon reflection, I suppose that "Adriac == 1337" is just a truncated form of "Adriac == 1337 = true", with the end there being logically assumed...
[/edit]


But anyway.

Just as I've said, the guy isn't saying it's freeware. He's just pointing out reasonable alternatives to expensive modern stuff that you won't see mentioned by the owners. He at no point endorses the pirating of unsupported software.

And photocopying a page from a book is actually completely legal because of the Fair Use clauses... The page is an insignifigant part of the work, will be used for entirely non-profit purposes, and is no substitute for the original work. Interestingly enough, you might think that it would be more strict for, say, teachers who photocopy entire chapters and hand them out by the dozen, but use in education is a huge bonus on the side of fair use.

And that's all I'm saying for now. I feel dizzy and light-headed, I think I need to sleep...

(Edited by Adriac at 11:26 pm on Aug. 2, 2003)

[Sonnybobiche]

I don't understand this. Why don't you just pirate the damned overpriced piece of crap and don't tell anybody. Nobody will ask questions. Jesus, you people are too much. I don't think Microsoft will feel the sting from 10 or 20 people not buying a version of Visual Studio they're not selling. Not only that, but you wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it doesn't make a difference. How does this pose a problem to mod development. I mean, for God's sakes, if you're really that morally obligated, get the freaking student edition in your kid's name. Honestly, this is not the time for a warez debate. Just get it by any means necessary and start reviving Uplink.

[Adriac]

Er, in case you haven't noticed, we're talking strictly about legality, not capability...