Introversion

Brento666 wrote:

Gabriel10010 wrote:Seems interesting- Really it does...but- it is PRISON ARCHITECT and... I just don't know how that would fit with guards having personalities.

Uh, Maybe they could do a Long-Term Supporter has a Face as a guard, with the Guard hat and Uniform in the game? nothing special- but neat...

Hi Gabriel!
-What 'that' do you mean?
-The second part just doesn't make sense to me at all!?

Just giving the staff names so they're not just clones should be fine with everyone.

xander wrote:

REDDQ wrote:Right now you barely care that you lost a guard.

Exactly. We aren't meant to care about the guards---they are machinery that keeps the prison running. It is the prisoners that are important. You may not agree with that point of view, but it seems to be the narrative that Introversion are interested in.

xander

Damn straight I do not agree with this. Prisoners being the only ones important is like a man having just one leg... he can live with it but he sure as sure would be much happier (and able) with both.

ronnie4444 wrote:

REDDQ wrote:Right now you barely care that you lost a guard.

That is 100% true. If you lose 10 guards, you click "staff", click "guard", and plop down 10 more, which makes losing a guard nothing more than a minor nuisance. I think that (optionally, via the create-a-prison menu) we should have to train guards over time, and they become better at their job as they go on, meaning that losing a guard is a problem because he happened to be really well trained. Also, it goes without saying that this is a simulation game, therefore micromanagement IS a good thing (for presumably a lot of people).

Also, if it's too much for someone, why not make it optional? Options are everything in games like prison architect - The devs said that they don't want to put any bias into their game, so who's to say no one wants to micro-manage their guards? Quite frankly, I'd love the ability to train my guards in different skills, so that they can become better at their job. Once again, nobody said it would be forced upon everybody. Personally, I turn on gangs and events, just because I love the extra challenge of sorting out my prisoners, and having the ABILITY (key word there) to specialize my guards in different skills would be fantastic. Also, when I say ability, I mean "Options, options, options!", because who doesn't like having the OPTION to do something these days? :p

//Ron

+1

Update on my *optional* mod wip for names in tooltips;
Am busy lining up names, have allot, I mean a sick lot of names scrapped from 'most common names in ...'-queries..

The resulting names will be very random... (I think I already have the base game name-generator beat.)
-Gender specific first names
-Random last names
-Some (selected 'classy'-) females may get double last names (because they are married snobs irl and fun to have extra randomness)

I am currently weighing the optional added Mr/Mrs/Miss and/or Dr. (for docs)...
And for guards;
-C.O.
-Sgt. / Staff Sgt. / 1st Sgt. / Master Sgt.
-Lt. / 2nd Lt. / 1st Lt.
(Chief)
Not going to make the script too complicated, but over time a Guard should climb the ranks... (todo)
->Must avoid everyone being promoted to 1st or 2nd's in classes. -> If a 'slot' in the hierarchy 'opens up' the most senior eligible staff member will have to be elevated!


edit: I will likely try to script the event of a guard going up in rank; going to the warden or chief(?) for a small rank-up-'ceremony'
-with a joyful sound
-maybe a small flashing icon
->(And the name rank change)<-

You guys have any other ideas specific to names?

Brento666 wrote:Update on my *optional* mod wip for names in tooltips;
Am busy lining up names, have allot, I mean a sick lot of names scrapped from 'most common names in ...'-queries..

The resulting names will be very random... (I think I already have the base game name-generator beat.)
-Gender specific first names
-Random last names
-Some (selected 'classy'-) females may get double last names (because they are married snobs irl and fun to have extra randomness)

I am currently weighing the optional added Mr/Mrs/Miss and/or Dr. (for docs)...
And for guards;
-C.O.
-Sgt. / Staff Sgt. / 1st Sgt. / Master Sgt.
-Lt. / 2nd Lt. / 1st Lt.
(Chief)
Not going to make the script too complicated, but over time a Guard should climb the ranks... (todo)
->Must avoid everyone being promoted to 1st or 2nd's in classes. -> If a 'slot' in the hierarchy 'opens up' the most senior eligible staff member will have to be elevated!


edit: I will likely try to script the event of a guard going up in rank; going to the warden or chief(?) for a small rank-up-'ceremony'
-with a joyful sound
-maybe a small flashing icon
->(And the name rank change)<-

You guys have any other ideas specific to names?

If you could make a military trained class for guards to go to that makes them almost impossible to disarm and faster and hit harder, it would need an external teacher (A military officer) to come in and teach the guards. And a similar class for armed guards and with a research that takes awhile and is expensive a class for certifying armed guards to use assault rifles. It would use the same teacher as mentioned above and the training for the armed guards would make them impossible to disarm. And then there could be another research that comes off of body armor that gives armed guards full riot gear with bullet resistant armor.

REDDQ wrote:Damn straight I do not agree with this. Prisoners being the only ones important is like a man having just one leg... he can live with it but he sure as sure would be much happier (and able) with both.

He has made that quite clear, as have you. I'm not sure why it matters, vis-a-vis the argument that IV have made a narrative decision regarding a work that they have created. It is like arguing that you would prefer that David wore a fig leaf to hide his genitals or that the Hobbit would have been more interesting if there were fewer dwarves. If the developers want to tell a particular story, why should they care that we users would prefer it if they told a different story?

Mind, also, that the argument presented above is specifically meant to counter the proposal that individualized guards be made an optional setting (I think that there are much better game-mechanical reasons not to individualize the guards at all, but there are a lot of people who disagree and who have suggested that it be made optional). Conversely, if IV decide to create a system of personalized guards, I don't think that it should be optional, as the differing narrative perspectives don't really reconcile well---a guard leveling system is not really something that works as an optional setting.

xander

[Edited to fix a typo.]

With the mindset of "Maybe if I smoked they'd think I was cool"...
->I am making all the staff members smoke (for now)

Code is ready for expanded logic for NonSmokers/QuitSmoking, but yeah, right now even teachers and imams will smoke if there's a pack nearby (like on the altar/desk)...

That change anyone's mind?
-I quite like the warden/accountant coming back from break and having a little smoke in their office... It's a stressful job you know!?

-> I Purposely left out prisoners because they can go blow smoke through an improvised filter device in a corner somewhere

xander wrote:

REDDQ wrote:Damn straight I do not agree with this. Prisoners being the only ones important is like a man having just one leg... he can live with it but he sure as sure would be much happier (and able) with both.

He has made that quite clear, as have you. I'm not sure why it matters, vis-a-vis the argument that IV have made a narrative decision regarding a work that they have created. It is like arguing that you would prefer that David wore a fig leaf to hide his genitals or that the Hobbit would have been more interesting if there were fewer dwarves. If the developers want to tell a particular story, why should they care that we users would prefer it if they told a different story?

Welp, with that attitude you can delete whole sections of almost any game related forum. Whole point of criticism and suggestion is to say something that might be against the will of developers. It is not like I will pack my stuff, move to UK and hold them at gunpoint until they code better guards into the game. I said my piece and rest is up to them, but at least they know there are players who would appreciate more accurate simulation of prison staff so resources allocated into that are might not go in vain. If new system was robust enough I would love to buy it in a DLC, I know coding ain't free.

With David things are pretty much set in stone (ba-dum tss...) but remember Sir Arthur Conan Doyle actually resurrected Sherlock Holmes because people wanted him to (and he really wanted him to stay dead). Bethesda changed Fallout 3 ending under influence of fans, Bioware "fixed" stupid ending of Mass Effect 3 and so on.

xander wrote:Mind, also, that the argument presented above is specifically meant to counter the proposal that individualized guards be made an optional setting (I think that there are much better game-mechanical reasons not to individualize the guards at all, but there are a lot of people who disagree and who have suggested that it be made optional). Conversely, if IV decide to create a system of personalized guards, I don't think that it should be optional, as the differing narrative perspectives don't really reconcile well---a guard leveling system is not really something that works as an optional setting.

I dunno what game-mechanical reasons are there... especially that system can vary from very developed with multiple training programs available for every guard to very simple where every officer would just have few traits like [rookie]=less than 15 days of service and [experienced]=more than 60 days of service. Also I don't see how optionality would cause problems with narrative (especially when sim games do not have such).

REDDQ wrote:I dunno what game-mechanical reasons are there... especially that system can vary from very developed with multiple training programs available for every guard to very simple where every officer would just have few traits like [rookie]=less than 15 days of service and [experienced]=more than 60 days of service. Also I don't see how optionality would cause problems with narrative (especially when sim games do not have such).

Agreed fully; I just can't grasp Xanders aversion to putting a little more 'meat' in current staff...

The things were suggesting aren't illogical, bothersome or out of place in the setting at all, I would feel... Having repeatedly stated having it optionally enabled via menu, I just don't get the point of arguing further...

Right now the only difference between a noob guard and a 'experienced' guard is (maybe) the tazer training... That's a plain insulting simplification of their risky, admirable, sometimes darn right heroic / tragic vocation, for Pete's sake!
->The current state of the game must be felt as a slap in the face to anyone working in the correctional sector/industry!

As to staff names: "If You Have Said A, You Must Also Say B"... Meaning further humanizing prisoners and further de-humanizing staff is just wrong from my perspective. Or lazy; Sadly lazy is a vibe I often get from the source materials I'm seeing and expanding on...

edit: Introversion's Chris, Mark and Leander are at least lending us an ear soon via a reddit AMA on dec 3rd... aybe I should ask them why they leave such obvious abstractions in the staff.

-Staff are humans, humans have names *in most countries with prisons at least that I know of.
-Staff in most prisons have ranks in certain roles and get promoted by their superiors for different reasons...
-Humans and indeed prison staff tend to get stressed and have struggles with addictions, like smoking...

Back on the subject of actually getting the topical buggers somewhat extended:

->From sometime tomorrow you can *optionally run my new mod {Staff Roster}
-Staff will get random generated names (with more variety and ethnicity compared to inmates base game random names. (which are pretty slim spread / racially bland)
-In some cases (groovy) titles and suffixes even!
-In case of guards, doghandlers and armed-buggers; they will hold ranks, get promoted based on seniority (persistently)
-Promotion takes place in a short scripted 'custom' event. ->If and when a position 'opens up'! (So pretty soon people will start getting promotions)
-Names and ranks new staff added to your prison in very timid way.
+Done with 1 'lazy' scripted object on Warden's or Chief's desk.
+Plus one minimal, frequent, short living script that animates a small promotion icon over the targets shoulder.
+Done reusing and scaling in-game graphics, so it has little/no impact on game performance or mod-limit (again).


->From sometime tomorrow you can also *optionally run my new mod {Stress Smokers}
-Place packets of (currently endless) smokes around staff hangouts like offices, classrooms, wherever.
-As stated earlier prisoners can go suck an egg, they don't get to smoke (openly). Inmates already have smokes as contraband and can keep on (invisibly) sneaking one in for all I care!
-After the pack shifts and a zippo sound is heard: Plumes of smoke will rise from the smokers (currently still empty) hands , for a extended but at the same time limited period... Whilst the person walks in vicinity of the 'fags'.
-If they leave a wider vicinity they drop their fag, it then extinguishes.
-The 'smokee' will get a counter incremented after the smoke is done; partially even if he/she finishes the 'smoker' early.
-The Smokee will not smoke for at least a few hours or longer.
+The lazy script in the packs looks for smokers and (currently) let's a single person smoke at a time. (currently all staff are set to like the dirty things)
+The smoke, smokee and smoker are unscripted (from my side).
+Done reusing and scaling an in-game sprite, so it has little/no impact on game performance or mod-limit (again).

Relive the lax smoking laws for workplaces of yester-century! ....Heck allot of places around the world don't even care about prohibiting it currently!

(addendum:)
-If after basegame fix: Later reform will hopefully have all staff be able to join a quitters club, or outside motivational speakers can come, or maybe books could educate your staff to not smoke(!) (open issue in mantis)
-I plan to test test or tweak the in-game coughing sounds volume: If I can get the levels to less irritating I will add random coughs soon. If not possible: mantis will be added to.
-If after basegame fix: I plan to tie it in with my wip 'surgery' mod... Staff will get sick (damaged) and need radiation or surgery...
I will need to be able to at times control the selected staff-members, currently not all are listening to reform or 'NavigateTo' (open issue in mantis I believe)

-For Staff Names currently their tooltip is used, I would like to use a field higher in their tabs order, but can't. I can't override their base label from lua either, but don't want that really. The result is still pretty friggin cool but I still will report a request for that specific access through script. (I will add these wishes to mantis soon)

<spoil below>






-I will probably very soon add all my new names to my {Crimes Upgrade} mod's biographies.txt so inmates (and in/upcoming update's females) can also have some extra-realistically-spread-names like Youssef, Mohammed, Ahmed, Mahmoud, Mustafa
- or Fatima, Shaimaa, Fatma, Maha, Reem, Farida, Aya!

So I am glad to see some progress/preparation in the base game files after the update and will be prepared to expanding it before it lands

Update: I incurred a slight delay in release for the 2 mentioned mods as I had a previous one misbehaving after Update 1... I did get all final works and planned features and more done, but I now need one more session of testing to make both new mods tie in each other as added bonus And finalizing description and thumbs etc...

Anyone reading/interested; you will hopefully be happy with trying and using the mods a little later; with minimal impact on performance and non intrusive fully scripted/handled events for smoking and promotions...
-It will demonstrate stabile ways of a new (force full) but affective technique in controlling guard staff, from external scripted object(s).

(And of coarse it will show using tooltexts on staff-entities and new custom objects creatively; to add extra humanity into staff and offer up-to-date insight into all new objects and newly named ranked subjects)

Just released { Stress Smokers }
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=557939134

Giving them personalities/qualities/etc... is obviously a huge can of worms. You would also have to allow players to sort what guards go where and some how have that mixed in with schedualing and when they are tired/on break.

I think what most people want is higher penalties for losing a guard/inmate/staff. You should be designing your prison to reduce that as much as possible.

gatekeeper501 wrote:Giving them personalities/qualities/etc... is obviously a huge can of worms. You would also have to allow players to sort what guards go where and some how have that mixed in with schedualing and when they are tired/on break.

I think what most people want is higher penalties for losing a guard/inmate/staff. You should be designing your prison to reduce that as much as possible.

Personally If I could;
-I'd have staff be chosen from an available pool of varying quality choices/genders. Then have them be able to change clothes like inmates. So they could have different faces, names, qualities, states of happiness (with pay/safety) and of coarse bad behavior like extorting weak inmates, selling contraband, using contraband themselves, erratic behavior, retaliations with excessive violence and a fat long skill tree of counseling/negotiation/disarming skills...
(I might post this bit later at the reddit AMA)

But still, with all that being highly unlikely now focus seems to be going female/babys;
-I'll give guards and other staff some more love soon with {Staff Roster}... Should be done and ready with it soon-ish

gatekeeper501 wrote:Giving them personalities/qualities/etc... is obviously a huge can of worms. You would also have to allow players to sort what guards go where and some how have that mixed in with schedualing and when they are tired/on break.

I think what most people want is higher penalties for losing a guard/inmate/staff. You should be designing your prison to reduce that as much as possible.

Lol, no more penalties. Guards, right now, hardly stand a chance against some criminals. Also AI is so lacking, fellow guards have problems in getting in position to help, armoured guards allow prisoners to take their guns away, you can't designate zones where guns are used freely etc. No one needs extra irritation.

Basic idea is just to have experienced guards... they fight better, search better, find tunnels better but do the same job as anyone else. If they are lost then bad luck. But the more complex system the more interesting the simulation so I would of course welcome personalities, traits, advanced management and so on.

Hi RedDQ,

penalizing guards behavior further would be bad indeed!

Imagine having a guard who's maxed out in lots of skills, then he dies... I'd love that mechanic of gain/loss!

Sadly getting them to be better (or worse) isn't settable at all atm... I have been thinking of maybe giving promoted staff in my new mod heavier weapons. But haven't pushed through on that idea for the first release (in a matter of hours).
But I am personally loving them having names, even Dogs get a name (like "Gianni" in my teaser;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNL1Iw3d3k