Gang FLAWS after testing...

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The vault hacker
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Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:20 pm

Hey everyone, with latest update adding gangs I was very excited to finally have a constant form of danger in my prison, this game really needed an antagonist and it got one.

However I think currently gangs aren't dangerous enough, or rather, it's difficult to actually get them to grow into something that you should deal with.
In my prisons the different populations have very little contact with each other, SuperMAX and PC have no contact with the main population what so ever, I might be the only one but it's already hard getting a legendary prisoner to begin with because my MAX is usually full (+- 80 cells) and this first causes gangs to be powerless in my prison.

Now IF I were to finally get a gangleader/legendary prisoner I would throw him in supermax right away and prevent any gang spread from the very beginning, yes he may convert some rough guys in there but 20 prisoners aren't as much of a force as 80+.
In short, gangs are too easy and it's a challenge to actually have them become a problem with a well designed prison and seperated regimes.


I have thought of some solutions though!
I'm not a gang expert and have watched few documentaries, unlike Chris but I based my idea's on making the game more interesting.

-Inside a weak gang (without a leader) soldier gang members can recruit non gang members through harassment, especially people with a high safety need might join a gang for protection.

-Growing gangs (10-20) can 'elect' a gangleader, based on the prisoners time left in prison, the severity of his sentences, 'gangjobs' (killing someone/recruiting) and misconducts inside the prison.

-Even when the gangleader is seperated from most of his gang and from the majority of the prison population he will want to increase his power, if the normal recruitment approach (gangleader recruits) fails then he will send a message to his lieutenants who will tell the soldiers to harass non gang prisoners and force them into the gang. This is less effecicient and slows gang growth down but does cause more violence, the choice is yours.

-A hidden trait some gangmembers might get: Ambitious, these prisoners will deliberatly perform misconducts and be very active in the gang to gain reputation and might challenge the leader is he has some loyal followers.


If you have any idea's feel free to post them, and if you like mine then let your support be seen!
Last edited by The vault hacker on Sat Aug 01, 2015 8:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chibs
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Re: Gang idea's after testing...

Postby Chibs » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:02 am

I like the suggestion.

Got a prison with 80 in-game days played. 200 inmates, 20 gang members in 3 different gangs... My prison is full and without a leader to recruit new members the gangs are not a problem what so ever.... And if I ever do get a leader ill just plop him into Super Max...
gammaian
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Re: Gang idea's after testing...

Postby gammaian » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:14 am

What if the gang got super pissed when you move their leader to a space the rest of the gang isn't in, just like how they get mad when you punish the leader. It would keep people from just throwing them in super max.
The vault hacker
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Re: Gang idea's after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Sat Aug 01, 2015 10:31 am

gammaian wrote:What if the gang got super pissed when you move their leader to a space the rest of the gang isn't in, just like how they get mad when you punish the leader. It would keep people from just throwing them in super max.


IRL, they already throw leaders in SuperMAX and the soldiers are fine with it to a point, the gangleaders are also fine with being seperated from the madness.
However they can still communicate through small messages, called micro-writing in which they can order someone to be killed or a capture a part of the Yard...

The problem right now in the game is simply the fact it is VERY difficult to get a gangleader in the first place, and then you would have to force yourself NOT to throw him in superMAX to deliberatly start the Gang-game.
I really want to play with gangs but I won't make dumb decicions I wouldn't make IRL, simply the gang should be able to recruit new members without the leader.

Recruitment with leader: Calm and without any violence the leader uses his charisma and influence to convince prisoners to join, prisoners with a high safety need would join more frequently.

Recruitment without a leader:
A gang will want to recruit new prisoners to gain more power until they're the biggest gang of the prison, this means the three gangs will keep searching for new members to compete with each other.
Now if the 'normal' recruitment proces fails (with gangleader) then soldier gang members will begin recruiting members like weak gangs, through harassment and violence scaring other prisoners and making them join for protection. This process is a lot more violent, weak gangs aren't a problem with this process because there are few members but if a large gang has to resort to this method it can become a major threat and maybe even a riot.

It's your choice, both options have pros and cons, the gangleader can recruit more members faster but there's almost no violence involved, recruitment without a leader is slower and less efficient but the gang will use violence, this will increase prisoners safety need causing them to join the gang for protection, or pay them money for protection if they can almost go on parole or their sentence is nearing it's end.


Apart from that, I think prisoners who deny being recruited by the leader might instead pay the leader all of his money he has at that moment to keep the leader happy and stay out of the gang at the same time. Prisoners with a short sentence or who have little time left to spend wouldn't choose to join a gang and risk doing misconducts which will make their sentences longer.
Last edited by The vault hacker on Tue Aug 04, 2015 9:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
lugaru
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby lugaru » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:25 pm

I agree that if feels that I need to TRY HARD to get gangs, rather than them being a thing that just happens. I agree with recruitment and electing leadership.

I would also say that there would have to be some sort of a penalty to a gang growing, and it would have to involve confidential informants. I would say having a CI in a gang should alert you of their plans and this would be the only incentive for a gang to not recruit like crazy.
AlKaPwn
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby AlKaPwn » Tue Aug 04, 2015 7:19 am

Yeah they said in the released video gangs were supposed to "fuck up our prison" this is the most gentle coitus I've ever experienced.
The vault hacker
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:05 am

So far I haven't been able to archieve a full blown gang infestation but I was wondering if people had any problems with the gang-game itself?
Are plays a real threat, can certain parts be improved?
The vault hacker
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Fri Aug 21, 2015 10:12 am

The fact that heavily gang infested prisons and mods that alter gang mechanics have been the most popular on the workshop for most of the month shows that the problem with people's prisons not being threatened by gangs isn't just me or a small group of people but actually wide spread.
I really hope IV does improve this because personally because gangs just don't 'boot up' it feels as if nothing has changed since alpha 34.
Taxen2
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby Taxen2 » Sat Aug 22, 2015 1:51 am

Yep, I think just turn up some levers and dials (not too far) to get more of a chance to get gang leaders and their recruitment should mean you have lots of gang members (don't know since like most people here, its been 22 days and still no gang leader). Red and green gang basically "ganged" up on blue and they only have 2 members left which means I have no chance of a gang leader.
landings101
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby landings101 » Mon Aug 24, 2015 3:32 am

Yep, I think just turn up some levers and dials

I think that the only dial that needs to be turned up is the amount of gang members that you receive but the "legendary" status shouldn't be a requirement mostly because it ruins gangs as a feature mostly because the kick off and cause a riot about everyday but it also makes them seem like they don't know the best times to pick a fight which wouldn't look good for a leader.

Even when the gangleader is seperated from most of his gang and from the majority of the prison population he will want to increase his power, if the normal recruitment approach (gangleader recruits) fails then he will send a message to his lieutenants who will tell the soldiers to harass non gang prisoners and force them into the gang.

I like the idea of this but it should also happen if the leader has trouble convincing prisoners to join him even when he's not separated through some sort of influence factor by how successful that said gang is at its plays
The vault hacker
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:41 pm

Hmmm, seems like alpha 36's features were already planned in advance because a lot of people's suggestions about gang-improvements were ignored. Don't get me wrong, I like the new events but it doesn't really feel like a core feature that's required for a 1.0 release.

Anyway, hoping they tweak the gangs soon!

EDIT: After playing with the new events for a while I got the EXTREME bulkintake event, however I still don't have any leaders... even now this gang is mostly harmless in MAX with other gangs seperated in other classes and in case a leader apears I'll throw him in SuperMAX.

I want to be fucked up! :(
The vault hacker
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby The vault hacker » Wed Dec 30, 2015 5:35 pm

I wonder if Introversion will pay much attention to gangs at this point...
moosegun
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby moosegun » Mon Jan 18, 2016 6:52 pm

I had totally the opposite, I had a low / med prison with 300 in-mates, had some gang members in med but they were never really a problem. I opened up an 150 in-mate Max wing, bought them into the prison in 3 lots of 50, got three legendary leaders in the first 100. My prisons has gone bat shit mental. Almost impossible to control but great fun to deal with, particularly as I didnt have a super max wing at this point so they spent some time in general pop. I now have 60+ gang members in the prison, battling to take over certain areas etc. Even though the leaders and 2nds are now separated it is very exciting trying to manage it all.

My biggest issue though is that effect of leaders being punished is WAY too high. As soon as one goes into solitary my prison danger is maxed out and I am constantly dealing with trouble. As all the leaders only seem to be able to last 4-6 hours before killing a guard (one is Super tough, Super Volatile, Super Strong, Super Deadly.... pretty much looks at a guard and he is brown bread!) there is always one of them in solitary. My record after one riot was 68hrs in the bin! Add to the fact that I seem to have a bug with laundry for dormitories so most of my max prisoners are getting no clean clothes and I am always on the brink of a riot. I think they need to tone it down a bit.

The vault hacker wrote:EDIT: After playing with the new events for a while I got the EXTREME bulkintake event, however I still don't have any leaders... even now this gang is mostly harmless in MAX with other gangs seperated in other classes and in case a leader apears I'll throw him in SuperMAX.

I want to be fucked up! :(

If you already have gang member then it will still have an effect, as above, if the leader kicks off in Max and is punished then your other gang members will kick off. Also I think that it is up to people how they want to play it, there are a lot of methods you can use to stop gangs having and effect (you could even say exploits) but if you go out of your way to stop gangs having an effect on the game, then guess what.... they wont.
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby montolh15 » Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:02 am

One thing that would really increase the realism here would be separating the gangs. Allow me to explain:

Gangs of different affiliations do not eat together, hang out together, play pool together. There are different gangs for a reason, and that reason is they hate each other.

One possible, convenient fix to this would be to make gang members generate faster Safety needs, in which to reduce that need would be to hang around other gang members (of the same affiliation ofcourse) / stay in their respective territories (much like staff members in the staff room when they're tired).
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Re: Gang FLAWS after testing...

Postby gag2499 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 1:38 pm

IKR thanks for pointing this out! they should already put a gang leader to start a gang just randomly starting with soldiers doesnt help as they remain inactive till some high authority enters d prison( i.e leader or that guy wid 2 circles forgot his post)

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