Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

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lugaru
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Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby lugaru » Thu May 28, 2015 5:48 pm

I'm actually really glad to see my 'luxury cells' may finally have a purpose, although I am a little concerned because in Max Security my prisoners have cells that would probably count as a 4+... window, tv, shower, weights. It kind of keeps them from being violent that frequently.. when I get home I'll load the game and see if all my max security guys dont get instantly kicked out and moved to the holding cell, where they will probably kill and eat the prisoners. :shock:
Last edited by lugaru on Fri May 29, 2015 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
MMZ>Torak
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Re: Alpha 33.

Postby MMZ>Torak » Thu May 28, 2015 6:35 pm

Interesting thought. Could be scary.

Hi New Inmate Bob, I see you are here for a simple possession charge and that you will be staying with us for 2 years. Please have a seat here next to Hannibal Lecter. Yes I see that he has a bib on and is carrying a knife and fork, but he had to be removed from his cell because it had a radio in it...

:P
lugaru
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Re: Alpha 33.

Postby lugaru » Fri May 29, 2015 11:15 am

Ok, I can confirm that this actually happened... well, two things did.

I loaded up my 'ongoing' game and I had several deaths fairly quickly, in part because a few of my ultramax people got mixed back into general population because their cells where too nice. There really needs to be a way to prevent this, it feels like cell quality is taking precedence over zoning which is a dangerous thing.
Inge Jones
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Inge Jones » Fri May 29, 2015 12:58 pm

Well that surely has to be an unintended bug if the game is ignoring prisoner categories. I was actually thinking of making more use of the ability to swap prisoners between categories now, and simply give my low security prisoners the best cells, as last time I played, the low security prisoners were the worst for tunnelling, and according to the update video prisoners will behave better if they don't want to lose their nice cells. Maybe that will dissuade them from tunnelling. Though you'd have thought that since low-sec tended not to have long to serve anyway they'd be more reluctant to tunnel and get their sentence extended?
MMZ>Torak
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Re: Alpha 33.

Postby MMZ>Torak » Fri May 29, 2015 2:28 pm

lugaru wrote:Ok, I can confirm that this actually happened... well, two things did.

I loaded up my 'ongoing' game and I had several deaths fairly quickly, in part because a few of my ultramax people got mixed back into general population because their cells where too nice. There really needs to be a way to prevent this, it feels like cell quality is taking precedence over zoning which is a dangerous thing.


I've seen this too. All my PC guys were wandering around communal Canteens. You can guess what happened. In 222ish game days I had 3 deaths in this prison. In the 3-4 ish game days I played last night I had easily that many. All due to PC guys wandering around areas they never did before this update.
I've also had Death Row guys just sitting in my holding cell rather than being taken to DR straight away. I had to manually assign cells to all the PC and DR guys that came into my prison last night.
Srial
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Srial » Sat May 30, 2015 12:57 am

My feedback is this really complicates intake. I created 15 new high value cells in my prison because I had a bunch of people who were due grade 8+ cells. The game said I had 15 cells available. My thought based on the video was I'd get 15 new prisoners, and it'd move the 8+ people to the good cells and give the grade 1 cells to the new people (grade 1 was still basically my average). The 15 new people just sat in my holding cell for 2 days and no one moved to the new cells. I had to manually move each of the grade 8+ prisoners I wanted to move to the fancy cells, and only then did it pull people out of holding and put them in grade 1 cells.

So now it's not just a question of saying 'I can fit in 15 more prisoners'. Now you have to figure out if you have 15 available average cells before you take them. That's gotta be put in the intake tooltip cause that's a pain to count up in a very large prisoner population prison.

On a global level. I'm not entirely sure what the benefit of this change is from the stated standpoint of making prisons less evil places. Good behaving people get better digs so behave even better. Evil murders get the junk cells so they get madder and eviler? I'm not entirely sure it's a fair tradeoff to make the already good prisoners happier at the same time giving psychos more of a reason to start killing the well behaving ones. I'm starting a new prison to play out this game more organically and see if I can see some value in this system, but so far I'm thinking every cell being the same grade might just be the way to go.
Thesneak
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Thesneak » Sat May 30, 2015 1:55 am

Hello I.S.
Been along time since I have posted. I want to thank you for all you have done to PA, and for creating a product I feel as though has been more than worth the money I have spent. I love this game.

This is the first alpha update that I am not completely on board with. I like the update, but the implementation and the results don't make much sense. Here is what I mean.
It's too complex when it comes to the relocating of prisoners. Here is how I think it should work.
1) I like the idea of a prisoners days without incident governs what privileges are available, but it would be simpler to adjust their security rating based on how they behave. This is how real prisons are. for example. Common rooms can now be set to minimum security, as well as kitchen and shop jobs. Low security wings have cells with more goodies, ect. This should be set to automatic, but with the players ability to set the security level manually as well. As with most things in your game there will be a good and a bad side to this. Example. The better prisoners behave, the less money you get for those prisoners who make it to minimum security, but, the less likely they are to trash their cells if the shit kicks off, so less money spent on repairs. You could also implement an early release for well behaved prisoners, giving the player a bonus. I don't know how much code would change, but I suspect it's mostly there already.
2) I do not like that prisoners will be placed in holding if there isn't a suitable cell for them. It's much simpler to just stick them in a cell according to their security rating (this already happens). Prisons use what ever room they have, but won't stick rats with lifers. As it is, you are fencing in our ability to create a basic prison with just the necessary stuff. The punishment for creating a shit hole, is that prisoners agro will be higher in a place that they hate. If there isn't enough cells in that security rating, then they go to holding also set for that rating.
3) The prison will only down grade the security status to the lowest available rating. If there are no areas set to minimum security, no one will be set to minimum. If your prison is only max security, then it will only toggle between max and super max status.
Here is what I suggest the game needs (no, not sniper towers).
A) Extended sentences for serious crime. If a prisoner murders someone in the prison it will result in a long extension in their sentence, or small extensions for assaults and escape attempts. (if possible even get fancy with a hearing to determine if a murder is self defense), or even an investigator unlock in the tech tree. Conditions being; if done in camera view, or witnessed by staff in their visual range.
B) Life sentence prisoners. They never leave.
C) Isolation cells are the 2x2 cells (get rid of the 1x1) requires the isolation door and can only be opened by a guard (no door servo) and as is already being done, guards bring them food, but also must take them daily to a yard and shower (yard needs no items except being outside and 3x3). You may need multiple yards and guards stationed to handle this, or you get fined by an advocate lawyer for each day a prisoner misses his yard time. 1 prisoner per hour per yard is the standard.
D) Ability to manipulate schedule down to the half hour.
E) Prisoners come in at their normal security rating and work down from there. Super max down to max 30 days time without incident. Max to medium 90 days. Medium to low 120 days. The only modifier being if they are sentenced to super max for murder, they stay there until the time is up, and then the time without incident clock starts. Prisoners kicked up depending on the infraction. Find drugs, up to medium, find weapons up to max.
F) Longer sentences in general, they get out too quick right now.

I know you worked very hard on the system that was just released, and I am asking a lot of you to chuck it and work with a variable that is already there, but if you think about it I am sure you will agree that using the security rating to connect what quality of cell they live in, job they have, and privileges they have will be simpler for the player, and for the code to make sense of, seeing how the game already makes use of this system heavily. The game was already heading in this direction anyway. It will add immensely to the game play, the realism, and the planning, and wont cost much in code. It may even go along way toward putting this game into beta phase and reveal end game scenarios

Oh, and as a personal favor, can you please allow the player to paint the ground with the room squares, and show a shadow of all the items, even if you cant place the items or use the rooms. I spend much more time planning every detail before construction than I do playing the game. I geek out on the "architect" part of this game.
Thanks for the avenue for feedback and for PA. The best O.C.D. pacifier
Inge Jones
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Inge Jones » Sat May 30, 2015 9:08 am

Actually I don't think in real life the security categories are connected with the in-prison privileges. Security rating is to do with how likely the prisoner is to try to escape, and how dangerous he would be to the public if he did. So the prison structure and regime is all about how strongly the prisoners need to be contained. The in-prison privileges on the other hand are behaviour modifiers, and are connected with how compliant the prisoner is within the parameters of his particular prison regime.

What I don't think there *still* is in this game is incentive and disincentive. It seemed to me what they were saying is that giving a prisoner a reward puts him in a good mood and makes him less likely to be angry enough to start a fight. That is not the same as the *promise* of a reward inducing good behaviour. The only thing stopping us controlling our more badly behaved prisoners by giving them all good cells is that the guards won't let him stay there - we will not have god powers over this. And in case we had any ideas about making all our cells excellent, there is a notion of "average" so that the prisoner won't get that mood buff from being in a superior cell. The developers have certainly put their brains to work making the game emulate reward and punishment effects, but this still isn't *actual* reward and punishment behaviour modification.
Robbedem
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Robbedem » Sat May 30, 2015 11:21 am

Connecting security rating to regime and facilities seems logical to me. If a prisoner is dangerous, you wouldn't want him to work in a workshop with mechanical saws and hammers, or you wouldn't put them together in a kitchen full with big sharp knives.

On the other hand, if a prisoner that was esteemed dangerous behaves very well, you should reward them by putting him in a less strict regime with more free time and facilities available. (On a side note: it would be nice to have food quality and quantity per security level)

The cell allocation system based on quality, could still be used per security category though.
Inge Jones
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Inge Jones » Sat May 30, 2015 11:41 am

Robbedem wrote:The cell allocation system based on quality, could still be used per security category though.


Yes and the game should be fixed to facilitate this. What quality of life a prisoner feels within his own cell has nothing to do with how securely he needs to be contained within the prison estate.

For example, in the English system, lifers are amongst the greatest risk for escape as they have little to lose. So you're unlikely to find them classed as low security. However lifers also are amongst the most settled within the system and more likely to have earned high quality cells than prisoners in for brief sentences.

Actually come to think of it, I don't think English prisons even have mixed category prisoners.
Thesneak
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Thesneak » Sat May 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Robbedem wrote:For example, in the English system, lifers are amongst the greatest risk for escape as they have little to lose. So you're unlikely to find them classed as low security. However lifers also are amongst the most settled within the system and more likely to have earned high quality cells than prisoners in for brief sentences.


I see your point about actual prison function being different than my little scheme of categorizing them, and it's true that the short timers are where housed, as opposed to lifers being made allowance for them to feel as though their little box is a home.

However for game mechanics, and because the game program seems almost founded on the AI rock of security levels that drive the entire puzzle. Everything is in one way or another tied to it. That's why I say the latest update is just too complex, forcing the issue so that deciding how to run a stable prison is a part taken out of the puzzle. We are alpha players, and should consider the players who will buy the game in finished version. The simple fact is the higher security level a prisoner is , the more apt he is to trash everything in his cell by program design. If you are successful at stabilizing your prison, you will have max rated prisoners being downgraded to medium, where if the player chooses, can have book shelves in their cells lowering their agro even more. the ones who always kick off though will end up in a 2x2 ( getting rid of the 1x1 iso room to trim the game) with toilet and bed talking to the dogs all night until the suppression effect crushes him back to max security. They said several alphas back that long and short term suppression effects were implemented. Just tweaking, no new code. Enough's enough and too much is plenty.
In a related side note, there is still no reason to buy the heavy doors. I put regular doors on my lockdown cells cause 450$ less, and the janitor can open and clean it. It's time those heavy doors were needed, and budget crushingly expensive to hold in super max guys hell bent on breaking out. Once again, nothing more added, just finishing a bit that will need to be tied up somehow. Heck with it though, if you want to leave the servos available for them, just as good.
Lastly I think that it is always better to remove code if what you want can be accomplished by processes already present, especially spine ones. I'm no programmer though so I'm gonna end that shtick, and just let I.S. query that.
leofidus
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby leofidus » Sat May 30, 2015 10:36 pm

No, the security rating shouldn't be tied to short term prisoner behaviour. This would interact badly with prisoner traits. I don't want a fearless, volatile instigator anywhere in my low-security area just because I managed to contain him for a few days. And god forbid a legendary prisoner getting into maxsec because of "good behaviour" (around armed guards). That would make things much worse, not simpler.

Cell rating is a short term effect, distinguishing those that are currently misbehaving from those that are not. Security rating is a long term assessment of how dangerous that person is if. Lowsec means that the prisoner is unlikely to misbehave and if he does a single guard can handle it. Maxsec means I need more guards and have to prevent prisoners from murdering each other. Supermax means that if they misbehave they might kill a few guards in the process.

I actually like the cell qualities. It adds an interesting challenge and helps focus guard deployments (don't need as many guards around the nicer cells). It's annoying that cell quality takes precedence over zoning, but after tearing down a few of my supermax cells and replacing them with smaller low-quality versions I have had no problems.

Inge Jones wrote:In a related side note, there is still no reason to buy the heavy doors. I put regular doors on my lockdown cells cause 450$ less, and the janitor can open and clean it. It's time those heavy doors were needed, and budget crushingly expensive to hold in super max guys hell bent on breaking out.


I have had one of my supermax guys thrash a solitary door in an escape attempt at least once. In riots it's not unusual for my maxsec guys to destroy cell doors if they are between them and the exit. But I agree that it doesn't matter enough what type of door is used.
Inge Jones
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby Inge Jones » Sun May 31, 2015 9:26 am

All the quotes are getting messed up. One thing I wrote had someone else name against it, and something I didn't write had my name on it. What's going on with this thread?
muahaa_the_french
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby muahaa_the_french » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:14 am

While I think that prisoners should not be moved to shared cells while available ones of their security rating are available (duh! i'm sure this will be adjusted, though) the obvious short term solution is to build a holding cell for each security rating.

If you have a supermax, protective etc holding cell do they get assigned as such?
MightionNY
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Re: Alpha 33 Cell relocating feedback.

Postby MightionNY » Sun Jun 07, 2015 6:47 am

As for me... I have four max-quality cells in my latest cell block... but none of my prisoners who are entitled to them (rank 10) get transferred there. Some are slumming in grade 2 or three cells....

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