[EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

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zosete
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[EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby zosete » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:29 pm

I'm sure you're all on this, but couldn't find the thread.
According to the wiki, risk categorie is an "estimate" and
do not decide how violent a prisoner will be but internal character traits do. The player will have to observe prisoners and interpret their conviction records to better assess risk. The ability to change the Risk Category is now available on the prisoner's rap-sheet.


However, income is tied to the risk categorie. So I'm taking low risk prisoners -which are estimated to be less violent and prone to complain- and manually switching them to high risk and getting the max. income per inmate.

This mechanic is broken. IMHO, being able to switch the risk level manually is a great feature, and there should be a correlation between prisoner dangerousness and reward, but I'm not sure how to fix it. I guess it would be cumbersome to track the "official" rating vs. the manually assigned one. On the other hand, making someone effectively more or less risky by changing its category doesn't make sense. (this mechanic seems to work with protective custody, though. Once you mark one of them in yellow the guy is a goner. That's a fast way to get rid of troublesome inmates).
RGeezy911
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby RGeezy911 » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:37 pm

Yep, some people have already figured this out and have used it to get easy money for their prisons. Eventually, exploits like this will get resolved and the system will get refined. But first, the main features of the game need to get fully implemented!

Another recent topic on this can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=51151
And probably one of the first topics on this can be found here: viewtopic.php?f=43&t=46314

Cheers!
Gangrene
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby Gangrene » Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:28 pm

I call that the "Gangrene Cheat". ;-)
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blipadouzi
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby blipadouzi » Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:07 pm

Gangrene wrote:I call that the "Gangrene Cheat". ;-)


You do realize that this has been a known exploit for well over a year. It's fun and cute that you name it after yourself, but was being done long before you started playing the game :P
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby miffy » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:57 am

I'm always changing the prisoner's classification rating. Often, a prisoner arrives as a grey low risk or orange medium risk. Reading his profile I learn he's incarcerated for rioting and violent behaviour and there's no way he's low risk; he's max security minimum. Then I learn from informants he's Extremely Volatile or an Instigator, so I immediately class him supermax. All my supermax and max security prisoners are on a different timetable to the low, medium, and protective custody prisoners.

A useful way to earn money seems to be by having an area of forestry. One tree seedling costs $100, but once fully grown and dismantled, the wood is worth $150 and you can manually sell it via the objects menu. If your workshop prisoners convert this wood into sawn planks, then it's worth even more.
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby arwan » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:14 am

here is something to consider as a FIX to the cheat.

scrap the current system. as i dont see it working with current mechanics.

instead, have the "state" pay you a flat rate for each prisoner based on what the "state" thinks that prisoner is worth, then you can switch them all day long and not get any more or less depending on their category, because the state is only going to give you XXX cash for that prisoner per day.\

a prisoners worth could be a variable number within the range we have now that is tracked per prisoner.
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby blipadouzi » Tue Dec 23, 2014 4:30 am

I think there is a way to get the current system to work properly. The real problem is that the player has control over the prisoner's security level.

What we need to do is keep the varying dollar amount dependant on security level, and increase the amount for SuperMax, rather than having it on par with MaxSec. Then, remove all options from the player to change a prisoner's security level and make increasing their rating fully automated, like murder is auto MaxSec (Should be SuperMax IMO, but whatever)... the only Security rating at the players full discretion is Protective Custody.

Then add SuperMax to the random generator and at the control of the state.

Most will say that this cripples the player by not allowing them to play volatile or regularly dangerous prisoners into SuperMax. This is where the final change comes into play. Instead of the player arbitrarily being able to change the prisoner's Security rating, he instead submits a request to the state to have the level changed. A judicial board evaluates the request... AI can look at crimes committed, time remaining to sentence, punishments received while in prison, mental evaluation from prison psychologist, security report from Chief (any discovered reputations).

Then the board would either approve or reject the request to change the security level, say after a 24 - 72 hr in-game delay.
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby Gangrene » Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:27 am

blipadouzi wrote:
Gangrene wrote:I call that the "Gangrene Cheat". ;-)


You do realize that this has been a known exploit for well over a year. It's fun and cute that you name it after yourself, but was being done long before you started playing the game :P


But... Did they name it?
5hifty
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby 5hifty » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:17 am

blipadouzi wrote:I think there is a way to get the current system to work properly. The real problem is that the player has control over the prisoner's security level.

What we need to do is keep the varying dollar amount dependant on security level, and increase the amount for SuperMax, rather than having it on par with MaxSec. Then, remove all options from the player to change a prisoner's security level and make increasing their rating fully automated, like murder is auto MaxSec (Should be SuperMax IMO, but whatever)... the only Security rating at the players full discretion is Protective Custody.

Then add SuperMax to the random generator and at the control of the state.

Most will say that this cripples the player by not allowing them to play volatile or regularly dangerous prisoners into SuperMax. This is where the final change comes into play. Instead of the player arbitrarily being able to change the prisoner's Security rating, he instead submits a request to the state to have the level changed. A judicial board evaluates the request... AI can look at crimes committed, time remaining to sentence, punishments received while in prison, mental evaluation from prison psychologist, security report from Chief (any discovered reputations).

Then the board would either approve or reject the request to change the security level, say after a 24 - 72 hr in-game delay.


When they are just finally starting to give more control over what happens in my prison, the last thing I think they should do is take control away from the player.

I think a way around this would be to pay the player increasing amount of funds for a prisoners the longer they stay - lifter (normally harder criminals) would generate more money late game. Keeping lifers alive and well would be a thing the player would try and achieve, instead of locking them away to starve if they build a long wrap sheet. Other prisons could be run by taking in large numbers of short timers - minsec prisons. This would push players to strive to keep their prisoners, if not happy at least alive. SuperMax guys would be kept on lockdown, with strict scheduling, not just to stop them killing others, and staff, but also because the state is paying a pretty penny to keep "Paul" alive (terrible guys might be able to fund entire wings) and needing to take him down with a shotgun (or having him die in a random riot) could definitely cause a hit in the budget. Add on to this the ability to rehabilitate (remove traits) over times means that instead of simply locking SM guys down, you could try and quiet them up a bit so you could reintroduce them into Genpop (still getting a pretty paycheck for the long stay) so a more violent criminal could take his cell. Or simply lock them in a box, feed them once a day and hope that they don't explode out of the box the one time a day you open it - that might work too.

This could also lead to some 'dark side' game play. Setting "Paul" up for something (my oh my, how did him and that snitch end up in the same cell?) the week of his release. "The state is paying to much to let that boy go, add a few years onto his sentence".
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby kalkkuna » Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:25 pm

Mr "Stephen King" arrived to my prison. He was HUGE.

He kill guard every time when goes mad. Was able to escape for solitary (he bend door). Broke also cell items and door twice. When running a round need many tazer hits to paralyze. 6 dead guards later I hope that chair would work (my idea avoid armed guards was obvious mistake). Delete of prison saved world of more loss of lives... :)

But this was good experience. Really bad prisoner is here and I need to find way how to handle situation. Game MUST give player this type challenges.

Like a lot also this "board" idea where player says "think that inmate rating should rise" and meeting accept change after check prisoner last days behavior. Then extra funds are allowed. BUT you CAN change prisoner status at once - if you like (and you _must_ when bad things has happen). Money increase is allowed "by others" afterwards. That's how it goes in real life.

That way you can rise prisoner low -> normal -> max -> super, if like or when needs, but money comes from government. Player still have all the "freedom" in his own hands.

After successfully therapy player should also able to move prisoner back to previous class and get good reward from government.
Deville
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby Deville » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:12 pm

I like the ability to change the security level and don't see a problem. If someone decides to "abuse" the system, it's his own problem, no one else is negatively affected by this. If you don't like it, don't use it.
YMS
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby YMS » Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:51 pm

I like the board idea. EDIT: Or, working on kalkkuna's input that money should be allowed by others after the rating was changed - a state's prison inspector could do his own rating every couple of days, possibly warning me that my ratings are too high and finally punishing me with a fine for unjustified payments made to too high security ratings of mine. This way I could change ratings as I like, the game would pay me immediately just as it does now, but the correction factor would be applied in a reasonable way.

Another idea (that could be combined with others) is that the prisoners themselves have a feeling on which security level they should be. If you make a min sec prisoner a max sec one just for the money, he will feel suppressed immediately (could also be a new need, like "justice", which could also cover other aspects, or it could just add up to the "freedom" need).
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby Gangrene » Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:44 pm

I think a good solution is to have prisoners come in with rate set to what it was at arrival via the security level. They maintain that unless they do something that would "automatically" update their level... part of that procedure would update their pay rate. Manually changes of security would not change their amount of pay.
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby Ketamine » Wed Dec 24, 2014 12:04 am

Deville wrote:I like the ability to change the security level and don't see a problem. If someone decides to "abuse" the system, it's his own problem, no one else is negatively affected by this. If you don't like it, don't use it.

I agree.

And if prisoners were 'automatically upgraded' their status, then that's takes the fun away for me to be able to micro-manage my inmates. I've only ever once had to set somebody to super-max and put them in a separate isolated 3-cell block (in a 200man prison). He ended up disarming the armed guard who stood outside his cell, killed him, then shotgunned 5 of my regular guards before being tazed. I put him in solitary until he starved to death :D
zosete
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Re: [EXPLOIT] Risk category trick

Postby zosete » Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:16 am

"Over a year?" that's alarming. I don't enjoy using exploits, but the fact that this is tied to the main income system and it's left to the player's choice is... We'll, not the best design.
I liked the idea about time exponential rewards. Sounds best that a one time bonus you could get when the inmate first arrives.

IMHO the player must be able to assign categories. That's half the fun. I suggest the prisoners to be created with a fixed risk/income and then the players can assign and rename as many categories and colors as they want. (ok, let's put a limit. Maybe 9). Why not? Surely this is a game for micromanagers, and right now the only category that has an extra effect besides the color/money is P. custody. (we should keep that as it us).

Think about that. Right now I only use low sec to tell my confidents apart. Most of us will keep the 5 predetermined categories and will find some great use for the others. The junkie/drunk squad, with lots of time assigned to classes (and their cells conveniently close). The workshop clearance block. The arsonists wing!

I don't know how complicated -programming wise-, it may be. But something tells me that of they can manage 5 categories they could manage 9. They should simplify other mechanics instead. Servos, for example. But that belongs to another thread...

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