Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

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RichieGrape
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby RichieGrape » Sat Nov 08, 2014 10:06 pm

RGeezy911 wrote:HiEv,

There was a discussion about that issue here: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=50803

I'm going to assume that you're trying to play the game with the Intel Graphics (on-board graphics). Unfortunately, that's no longer possible. It's likely that the developers raised the minimum system requirements to play the game, and as a result, your system is falling short. That being said, I am the first opponent to that bug report. In my opinion, Introversion should not try to develop a game that tailors to very weak systems.

Try getting yourself a cheap GPU and installing it into your system. The OP in the topic linked above did the same, and was able to play again.

Cheers!

yea about 3 years ago i went up to http://www.microcenter.com/ bought myself a $20 video card (radeon hd 6450 OC 1gig) and its been enough to play even BF3 ... my computer is 10+ years old and still runs the game well
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby 5hifty » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:02 am

Not being able to run games with onboard? That is an old analogy. Many motherboards now come with intergrated graphics that are more then capable of running video game. It's not uncommon to have 2g of onboard running at a reasonable clock speed, more then Capable of running newer games at AT LEAST med graphics.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby RGeezy911 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:49 am

Few of the people I've seen buying Prison Architect have weak systems. As a result, they have an older mainboard and are using an older version of the Intel HD Graphics (some of these people are even using older laptops). Most gamers who are not on a budget end up getting a dedicated graphics card, as it's pointless to keep using integrated graphics when you have the money to spend.

Since the game is still in development, integrated graphics are not reliable. Therefore, getting a dedicated card is the best route to take (in order to resolve the issue of the poster before us). And yes, in my opinion that old analogy still holds true. Looking at some benchmarks of the Intel HD Graphics 4600 leads me to believe that most gaming experiences are appalling at it's best. The user is restricted to playing a lower resolution / windowed, and at moderate or low graphics. If you want to play a game just to play it, so be it. But if you're someone who actually wants the game to look good, then get a graphics card instead of getting a new mainboard entirely (unless, of course, your mainboard can't support the card for whatever reason).
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby Krutonium » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:15 pm

The problem is that the majority of people are using Intel Graphics - they actually have a majority market share last time I checked. Not catering to Intel Video Chipsets could end up limiting potential exposure.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby knoest26 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:19 pm

It applies to older version
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby balfro » Fri Nov 14, 2014 9:33 am

I found it quite bad. That he put. The thing that i love the most about this alpha. As a bad thing. Monthly new features are good in my opinion. (I am taking the risk here) Because the keep me in the game. And the alpha video´s just make my day when they come out. I always watch the video before i even go check out the full change list. Nevermind actualy launching the game. I think it´s good.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby WHiZSTeR » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:39 pm

spectacularnono18 wrote:
knoest26 wrote:I also expected more of the bugbash because in my opinion it didn't fix anything major but that's just something we have to accept and hope the next Alpha will be 'better'


I was really dissapointed in this bugbash. On the first bugbash they fixed 73 major bugs and 1600 duplicates. In this bugbash they only did 39 major bugs ans 500'ish duplicates.

Seriously what happened with the developers this month? Unless they took a vacation or something...


This past bug bash was a ridiculous effort. I too found myself thinking they used it as a way to take vacation. As the month went by i watched mantis everyday, you could see who was doing what and who wasn't and how much they were doing. It was actually a bit upsetting to watch.

Then for most of the bugs fixed to be stupid sound annoyances that kept playing which were frankly they same kind of problem and hence the same kind of fix made matters even worse.

There are show stopping bugs that affect many people that make the game unplayable or close to it. These bugs have been there for OVER a YEAR. And instead of fixing critical bugs, we get sound issues and a lame clock, none of which were critically needed right now.

And in regards to the first poster talking about them nerfing previous fixes game. They can't make a proximity based job system, so a few alphas ago one of the devs hacked in a backup that would re-evaluate who should do what based on proximity. It wasn't ideal as it was doing double work, but it actually made a positive difference. I'd like to know why was that removed or nerfed and not fixed again.

sigh... The game has huge potential but the priorities of the dev team seem to have changed. As another user put it, from fixing and adding to their own game, to giving everyone early access to make mods to provide the new content for them.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby djdunn » Sat Nov 15, 2014 1:23 am

they need to take what they learned doing the kitchen scrap everything and start over, each fix only seems like a bandaid to help alleviate the symptoms of the problems not the core problems themselves.

trying to declare the kitchen ai NP-complete is just a copout. its supposed to be a simple system, take food to kitchen store, X time before meals cook food, take cooked food to serving table.

as the alpha goes on and on it gets worse, fixes they make dont do anything, like limiting the amount of food cooked to be the amount of food needed in the next 3 hours. if that fixed a problem why do they finish cooking food, stand around then start cooking food again as soon as the first prisoner grabs a tray and continue to cook until the meal is over.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby xander » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:42 am

djdunn wrote:trying to declare the kitchen ai NP-complete is just a copout. its supposed to be a simple system, take food to kitchen store, X time before meals cook food, take cooked food to serving table.

The traveling salesman is also supposed to be simple: find the shortest route through a graph. Turns out that it is NP-complete, thus very hard to solve. The halting problem is also simple: given a computer program, can you determine whether or not it terminates? Simple problem to state, but it is NP-hard. Again, very difficult to solve. It looks like you have discovered one of the features of discrete mathematics: problems are often very easily stated, yet very difficult to solve. Congratulations. You are now ready for a sophomore level course on algorithms.

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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby HiEv » Sun Nov 16, 2014 6:35 pm

RGeezy911 wrote:HiEv,

There was a discussion about that issue here: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=50803


And I've since replied to that thread and to the bug report explaining why your "weak renderer" explanation doesn't make any sense.

RGeezy911 wrote:I'm going to assume that you're trying to play the game with the Intel Graphics (on-board graphics). Unfortunately, that's no longer possible.


However, it is possible. You either have to run in safe mode or you have to set the "FirstTime" option in the prefs to "True". Also, it worked fine in Alpha 25, so there's no reason why it shouldn't be able to work now, they just need to figure out what they broke in Alpha 26.

RGeezy911 wrote:It's likely that the developers raised the minimum system requirements to play the game, and as a result, your system is falling short. That being said, I am the first opponent to that bug report. In my opinion, Introversion should not try to develop a game that tailors to very weak systems.


Yeah, and you're the only opponent so far. Because if you want to have good sales, you don't try to make it available to less people for no good reason. Heck, Minecraft works fine on this machine, so why not Prison Architect, which isn't even 3D?

They obviously could support this graphics setup up to the previous version, and despite your belief that they changed the minimum requirements, they haven't made any such indication that they did that. Furthermore, the fact that you can get it to work temporarily using the "FirstTime" option demonstrates pretty clearly that this is an unintentional bug, not a conscious choice.

Even if it was a conscious choice, you should show some sort of error, not have the game run with a black screen.

RGeezy911 wrote:Try getting yourself a cheap GPU and installing it into your system. The OP in the topic linked above did the same, and was able to play again.


My computer actually has no expansion slots, so that isn't possible. Yeah, it's a lame computer, but at this point I can't yet afford to buy a whole new computer for one game.

In any case, if people buy the game, and all they get is a black screen, they're not going to get a new graphics card, they're going to ask for their money back. I just bought it myself, and if I hadn't grabbed Alpha 25 first that's what I would have done.

This needs to be fixed.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby bernds » Mon Nov 17, 2014 2:56 pm

xander wrote:The traveling salesman is also supposed to be simple: find the shortest route through a graph. Turns out that it is NP-complete, thus very hard to solve. The halting problem is also simple: given a computer program, can you determine whether or not it terminates? Simple problem to state, but it is NP-hard. Again, very difficult to solve. It looks like you have discovered one of the features of discrete mathematics: problems are often very easily stated, yet very difficult to solve. Congratulations. You are now ready for a sophomore level course on algorithms.


Try not to be condescending when you get your facts wrong. The halting problem is actually undecidable, it has nothing to do with NP-hard problems.

And while NP-complete problems are very hard to solve optimally, that doesn't mean there isn't a heuristic algorithm that gets sufficiently close. The optimal solution may require exponential time, but a merely good solution can often be obtained reasonably quickly. For example, all the interesting problems in compilers (scheduling, register allocation) are NP-complete, but that doesn't stop us building optimizing compilers that do a reasonable job in practice. The same ought to be true for the problems encountered in PA.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby xander » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:27 pm

bernds wrote:Try not to be condescending when you get your facts wrong. The halting problem is actually undecidable, it has nothing to do with NP-hard problems.

Undecidability and NP-hard are orthogonal concepts. Problems can be both NP-hard and undecidable. Case in point: the halting problem. Or do you see an error in the proof-sketch given in the previous link?

bernds wrote:And while NP-complete problems are very hard to solve optimally, that doesn't mean there isn't a heuristic algorithm that gets sufficiently close. The optimal solution may require exponential time, but a merely good solution can often be obtained reasonably quickly. For example, all the interesting problems in compilers (scheduling, register allocation) are NP-complete, but that doesn't stop us building optimizing compilers that do a reasonable job in practice. The same ought to be true for the problems encountered in PA.

There is nothing in anything that I have written that contradicts that statement. I don't think that anyone is arguing that the system can't get better, only that it is a very difficult problem to solve, and that it might never be perfect (as you say, the optimal solution may be hard to compute, but a nice approximation may be possible).

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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby Jazzy » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:53 pm

I won't jump on the "its alpha" bandwagon but my experiences with this alpha state is very different from what you are describing. I'm sure there are ways to work around whatever these problems are that you are encountering. Perhaps the layout of your prison isn't as efficient that you believe it should be (i mean no offense, i've had many designs that i thought would succeed and watched with great amusement as they failed miserably).

bae85 wrote:
3 - Prisoners are not being punished. I have one prisoner who just killed two people and attacked staff and he's been tazed and that's it. Those who dig tunnels are allowed to go back to bed, those who attack other prisoners are pretty much ignored.


I've not had any trouble with this yet and in fact, everything has been running so smoothly that i haven't even had to adjust the policies to incorporate more punishment. Are you certain you have extra guard staff that are not assigned to patrols or stations to transfer your naughty prisoners to solitary? The only time I've noticed any prisoner sitting around in cuffs or stunned from being tazed was when my guard count was real low, like 0-3 / x. There was just simply to much going on for those few free guards to get around to their tasks of transferring prisoners. Also are you certain you had room in your solitary confinement area to store those prisoners when they were bad?

bae85 wrote:4 - Prisoners all using the same toilet at the same time. I have a couple of toilets in my canteen, and I once saw 5(!) prisoners all using it at the same time. Were they having an orgy maybe?


Gross, and probably not. I think the logic in the program decided that all of these prisoners needed to use the toilet but it did not recognize that one of them had already been assigned to that particular toilet so they all crowded in there trying to use the can.

bae85 wrote:5 - Contraband, why is it every truck load of ingredients and stuff for the kitchens is so full of contraband? I went to my informants screen and quite literally watched them arrive (with my informants telling me what was where - how do they know what's on a truck?!?!) if it contained 8 items at least 5 contained contraband. It's just stupid, contraband does not enter a prison through food deliveries, for a start all deliveries would be checked. If a prison was not checking its deliveries to make sure they are fine (and I mean all items they ordered are present from an administrative point of view as a bare minimum) the person in charge would be fired! ... I think I would change supplier if more than half of my deliveries of foodstuffs were containing shanks, needles and drugs...!


I have never seen this problem but has been running flawlessly (except for the 1 fight and 3 overdoses). My prison is still pretty small, only 68/50 prisoners but i have constant supplies of food crates being brought in to fill 4 refrigerators and in 25 days of my prison being active I've only caught 2 (maybe 3) food crates that had contraband in them.

bae85 wrote:7 - Stupid annoying prisoners, legendary in every sense of the word, volatile, cannot be punished, kills everyone, cannot be tazed and had a 200 year prison sentence for murdering fellow prisoners and guards. This new 'feature' (I use that term very loosely) has ruined the game. Not every prisoner in the world wants to kill everyone, escape or just be a general dick. Believe it or not, some are sitting out their punishment and wouldn't run away even if you left the door open so why must it be so 'hollywood'?


Cant say much on this issue because I've yet to see a legendary prisoner but I have had some pretty nasty baddies come into my prison. Maybe you've already done this, but if not, try to organize your regimes to prevent your high risk prisoners from being in the same room as the low risk. I notice they like to pick on them quite a bit. I staggered my regimes just enough to where they barely spend any time in the same room together and are usually just passing each other in the halls. I've seen some people suggest to just execute your prisoners with extreme life sentences like the one you had. That may spare you the trouble of having to deal with his hostile behavior.

bae85 wrote:8 - Pathfinding/general ai - why do prisoners during free time who are hanging around in their cell insist on using a toilet - not the one in their cell - but the toilet in the yard on the opposite side of the map even though they are desperate? Why is it when building foundations there is always one piece missing because a workman from the opposite side of the map is responsible for putting the last piece in? Why is it that when performing a shakedown, guards leave their assigned deployment to search somewhere miles away? why do some prisoners travel miles across the map - naked- to a shower at the furthest point? No wonder the game is dog slow with stupid ai like this.


I agree with you entirely on this issue. The logic in the pathing system needs some work to prevent prisoners from crossing the entire prison complex to use a facility that is either all ready in their cell or much closer than the one they are pathing to. Also I would like to see less "ping-pong" movement. I had one janitor literally bounce off the walls five times while trying to get into a prisoner's cell to change out the dirty laundry.

bae85 wrote:10 - Why can't we allocate all staff to a certain location not just the guards? I would quite like to be in control of my staff...


What staff are you trying to relocate? This needs more information. Workers will always hang out in the storeroom or delivery area. Guards will hang out in the canteen, yard, security office, or delivery area. Chefs are always in the kitchen or running back and forth to delivery. Chief, Warden, Psychologists are always in their office or staff room ( or in the common room during sessions ). Janitors and gardeners, well im not sure where those guys hang out because i only use 1 of each so they're always busy (prisoners do 95% of the cleaning and janitorial work in my prison). Armed Guards all follow patrols or otherwise stand still if not assigned (at least as far as I've noticed). And Dog Handlers will wander around the delivery area also unless there is a kennel or patrol route assigned to them. What more control do you feel you need?

bae85 wrote:11 - I saw one character with a racist name. How on earth did nobody pick it up?

Hadn't noticed this racist name. Perhaps it hasn't cycled through my inmates yet but I'm sure if the dev's feel that it is as inappropriate as you feel it is it may be eliminated.

bae85 wrote:12 - Laundry - why are dirty clothes always left in doorways?

Haven't encountered this problem. My prisoners usually just throw their dirties on the floor near their bed. What I do not like is things being left in doorways. Perhaps there is a code that could be added that enables guards or janitors to remove obstructions to doorways so they can close. This could be crucial during attempted escapes.
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Re: Alpha 26b... *shakes head*

Postby 5hifty » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:02 am

Jazzy wrote:
bae85 wrote:5 - Contraband, why is it every truck load of ingredients and stuff for the kitchens is so full of contraband? I went to my informants screen and quite literally watched them arrive (with my informants telling me what was where - how do they know what's on a truck?!?!) if it contained 8 items at least 5 contained contraband. It's just stupid, contraband does not enter a prison through food deliveries, for a start all deliveries would be checked. If a prison was not checking its deliveries to make sure they are fine (and I mean all items they ordered are present from an administrative point of view as a bare minimum) the person in charge would be fired! ... I think I would change supplier if more than half of my deliveries of foodstuffs were containing shanks, needles and drugs...!


I have never seen this problem but has been running flawlessly (except for the 1 fight and 3 overdoses). My prison is still pretty small, only 68/50 prisoners but i have constant supplies of food crates being brought in to fill 4 refrigerators and in 25 days of my prison being active I've only caught 2 (maybe 3) food crates that had contraband in them.


Really? In my experience roughly 1 out of every 2 delivery items have contraband in them, It is THE single largest cause of contraband. I've stopped playing this game because I literally spend all my time waiting for trucks to mark the contents for search (metal detectors and dogs wont pick up all contraband). I'm waiting for some way to automate searched (my idea is a 'room type' that causes anything that passes over it to be marked for search)

Image
Image

As you can see in those pictures, that vast majority of the contraband in my prison comes from deliveries. Pretty much everything you can see in the second picture (except the knives) is delivery related.

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