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[suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:01 pm
by McLumberjack
Hello again everyone, the new traits system bought me back to PA after several alphas. In these early access things I find it's good to let a few features build up before coming back, and goddamn PA doesn't disappoint, lots of new things to see and do. Traits in particular really add a bit of life to the prison.

As with all new alphas I've started a prison from scratch, after a bit of a rocky start (someone overdosed before I had doctors (and before I knew prisoners could now do that), poor chap) I was up and running. On my third intake of max sec prisoners I got a real nasty piece of work. Initially a question mark I put my snitches to the task and discovered he was indeed that Adam Baly. You've probably read about him in the papers.

Extremely Strong
Extremely Tough
Extremely Volatile
Extremely Deadly

A Steven Segal level badass (movie Segal, not real life Segal) who CANNOT BE COWED. Basically a criminal Batman. So... a Bane.

I wasn't set up for this, so while I built a cell fit for the bastard offspring of Hannibal Lector and Magneto I stick him in solitary. thinking he's stoical, so at least he won't care. That was my first mistake. A drug addiction kicked in fiercely and in the first 24 hours he killed 3 guards and a dog. It takes three tazers to put him down, I thought I'd resort to shotguns but it takes three of those too (although it is a little more satisfying). He has now murdered 7 guards (2 armed) and 2 dogs*, and his sentence has been extended to 251 years.

And now I realise: He's going to be in my prison forever.

This.... isn't really the best. He's put a complete dent in my expansion as my entire day is now keeping tabs on this one guy. I'm pretty sure my prison is a warren of escape tunnels and awash with drugs and cellphones, but any time I do anything else, there goes Captain Asshole smashing up his cell again. I station three armed guards outside the double gate entrance, weapons free, and open the lock. Bang bang bang.

He won't die.

It is kind of interesting as an end game scenario, but I really don't want this to be... it. Looking after this dog killing maniac forever. So a couple of thoughts:

1) Having killed so many staff this guy should really be earning himself the cop killer trait. Every time my guards put him down I'm amazed at their restraint. I guess they weren't friends with his victims.

2) I so badly want to throw the switch on this guy, while snarling 'this is for Sgt.Patches' through gritted teeth. It's time the game thought about death row.

*The game doesn't keep track of the dogs. But I do. Next alpha I want to see two counts of animal cruelty on his rap sheet, please.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:37 pm
by Dutex
Hehe.. I could almost see this situation in my mind.

But yes, at the moment Legendary Prisoners are bit too troublesome especially if you get them before you are ready for them. Im not sure but i havent had any legendary as norm sec. so maybe thing is that one should not take max secs before one is really ready for them. I love the new system and at my hyper maximum security prison things finally feel like true dangerous prison. But what bothers me and seems like the problem at your prison too is that over powered Deadly trait. If only they could not kill a guard with single punch we could have chance.

Myself i think Deadly should be like Martial Artist (or something like that) and one with that trait could punch a guy unconscious with single hit and kill with second. Now as a player the way to prevent 251 years extended sentences we need to use more guards at him. This way he shouldn't have chance to kill guy if player knows how to act when he flips.

And definitely we need animal cruelty as a missconduit!

Sry my bad english...

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:27 pm
by stroberaver
Fully agree with the OP.

On the whole, I love the new reputation update - it really brings the prison to life with an element of unpredictability, after a few recent alphas that seemed a bit stale.

But the legendary prisoners... hmmm. I opened up a prison from Alpha 24 with a population of ~350 inmates (all security levels, although the majority were max sec) and immediately panicked as all my guards were stripped of their tazers. The only immediate option was to increase guard numbers by 80%, and get everybody Tazer certified again asap. Even so, the prison is now a much more violent place with fights breaking out daily and guards routinely getting attacked, despite their needs mostly being met.

Anyhow, things were controllable... just. Then my legendary prisoner arrived in a new wave of intakes. I immediately set about ripping out my unused holding cell and converting it into a tiny SuperMax wing with just three cells and a little shower. But my Legendary is just a complete asshole. He never gets his needs met because whenever he is let out of his cell, he kicks off and attacks somebody, gets tazered three times or has the shit kicked out of him, then gets taken back to his cell. He gets let out again, and the cycle repeats. Even when he's starting to starve, he doesn't have the sense of self preservation to get some food - instead he'll pick a fight with an armed guard on his way to the canteen.

It feels as though we need some new tools, controls (or, if necessary, simply more firepower and more intimidation) to control these guys, otherwise it pushes the balance too far - there just aren't the tools in the player's inventory to exercise any control over a Legendary prisoner.

The only saving grace was that he was only in for 8 years. That was until he got into the kitchen, stole a fork and immediately murdered a prisoner and two guards, meaning I'm now effectively stuck with him for the duration of my game.

It was at this point that at 8pm in-game, I set my workmen about re-routing some power cables in the SuperMax wing, relocating a shower drain and leaving just a metal detector and a switch right outside the shower cubicle in a corridor that would now get flooded. At 5am the following morning, my guards slipped away from the SuperMax as Mr Legendary got up for his shower and breakfast while all the other inmates were asleep. Thinking I was a bloody Prison Architect genius, I threw the power switch to activate the flooded metal detector and waited for Mr Legendary to be no longer A Problem. You can imagine the sinking feeling when I realised that metal detectors no longer explode when they're short circuited in water.

So Mr Legendary is still with me, still stuck in the perpetual cycle of getting let out, him kicking off, getting taken back to his cell beaten unconscious or tazered, and repeat. And I'm afraid to say, it kinda spoils the game a lot to be stuck with this cycle. We need:
  • More firepower, or a type of guard that intimidates more
  • The ability to make a certain guard type stay in the vicinity of a particular prisoner, i.e. follow them around
  • The option of bring food to a cell, or being able to meet some needs outside of the usual regime options
  • The ability to restrict areas to a certain security level, i.e. if I build a little yard just for SuperMax, I need to make sure they only use that one by excluding them from the main yards everyone else uses
  • Guard/staff killers should definitely get the cop killer reputation - or maybe a new "guard killer" reputation which is even worse. After all the guards are more likely to be emotionally affected by the murder of a colleague in the same prison as them, compared to the murder of a cop they've never met. After killing one or two guards a prisoner should have a *dramatically* shorter life expectancy at the hands of the guards
  • I found a High Risk prisoner in my jail that had committed so many murders his sentence was nearly up to 200 years. For such situations, surely it's time to start thinking about an appropriately sensitive way of introducing the electric chair into the game?

On a slightly different note, the Protective Custody security level is an inspired idea, but somewhat frustrating in it's current incarnation - mainly because the guys in custody have absolutely no sense of self-preservation. They know they're in Protective Custody, they know they're snitches, ex-law enforcement, etc., yet give them an hour of free time and what do they do? Choose the exit/corridor that's swarming with high risk violent prisoners. Or go and sit in the canteen right next to a table full of the red-suited guys. You can imagine what happens next. Surely the protective custody guys need some built-in aversion to being near other prisoners (moreso for the higher risk prisoners), and a preference to be with other yellow-suited prisoners (safety in numbers, etc) or choose to stay in the vicinity of guards.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:48 pm
by xPyr0x
I just leave free-fire always on when using max/supermax inmates. Drop guards everywhere, and include regular guards with tazers also. You'll end up with a few deaths (inmates usually) everyday but when another super max inmate watches his cell mate get shotgun ventilated, they all end up suppressed and surrender but it usually takes one guy to get SHOT! before they surrender/suppressed!

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:22 pm
by McLumberjack
It's funny you should mention their own yard, I've actually been doing just that. Protective custody has one too. The trick is to build it so they're closer to their cells (in terms of number of doors as well as general proximity) and have everything they could want so they don't go to a different yard to, say, use a phone. Then you have to manage the regime so they're always coming out of lockdown before using the yard so they don't end up in the wrong one.

Then all you've got to worry about is visitation. I tried to get it so visitation was behind staff only areas, assuming that'd mean an escort, but it just means no visitation. One for the mantis tracker maybe.

All in all I'm very happy with how it's put together, it's just that routine. This dog murdering motherfucker needs an end to his story. I like the electrocution idea, sorry that didn't work out. I might just take meals out his schedule and see if I can starve him out.

Every time he gets rowdy now I load the corridor with armed guards in a firing squad, unfortunately they only wound him. One of these days the doctors will all be in the staff room at the same time...

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:28 pm
by McLumberjack
AAH! Jesus christ. I was just watching him come back from the canteen and he just lunges for two armed guards for no reason. They both fire tazers to no effect, and just as he's about to murder them both I flip on free fire and they gun him down.

Still alive of course.

But goddamn, this is insane. I like it!

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:33 pm
by Pirate
200 years ? My guy has almost 500 years now. 'Extremely Deadly' is absolutely a recipe for disaster. On the other hand he's taking a lot of the 'Volatile' guys off my hands ;)

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:37 pm
by Jinxed
I developed an interesting way to solve problems with those legendaries.

1) Assign your undesirable legendaries in max-sec
2) Make a holding cell
3) Place a cleaning cupboard 3x3 inside of holding cell for prisoners to grab improvised clubs when the fight starts
4) Assign holding cell to max-sec only
5) Lock them inside
6) Place 5-6 armed guards outside just in case
7) Wait for prisoners to kill each other
8) Open the door and hope that your armed guards will gun down the last man standing.

As an alternative, you can just allow them to escape.

Those solutions are not satisfactory in most cases, obviously, but still fun thing to do.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:37 pm
by stroberaver
I managed to fix my Legendary problem as a fight broke out in his cell with three regular tazer certified guards. The three guards hadn't subdued him when a passing armed guard came over to help. His tazer was unsuccessful too, so he joined in with fisticuffs.

Until I enabled weapons free, and half a second later the Legendary was dead. Yay!

Seriously though, it shows the balance is somewhat off when we have to resort to engineering extra-judicial killings because there's no way of controlling these guys or properly restricting where they can go.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:37 am
by McLumberjack
Closing in on 500 years. Had two absolute doozies tonight. Both armed guards with weapons free. They're going to be the laughing stock of guard heaven.

The legendary arsehole has a personal 5x5 yard outside his cell, it's bordered by two large doors, and outside those are armed guards stationed 24/7. He spends most of the day in there, and if he flips out, weapons free, and the guards shoot through the bars. At least in theory.

The first death, he just starts flipping out, I put on weapons free and the nearest guard takes aim... suddenly a hand shoots out between the bars and breaks his neck in one strike. Huh. I didn't know he could do that. The other guard blasts away, taking three shots to put him down. 10 prisoners who were passing through the line of fire all surrender too, which is nice.

Second death, he's in his cell. It's a giant thing full of all the amenities a serial murderer could want. Again he just starts flipping out, kicking the crap out of a television. I don't think he liked what was on. I see it and order weapons free as tasers are fired through the bars to the usual no effect, then notice too late, rather than shoot from outside one of the guards is approaching the door... he was going in for fisitcuffs before I got the chance to order shotguns. Almost in slow motion he opens it and steps into the cell, then raises his gun. In disbelief I can't help but say "what the hell are you doing!?" like he's a real goddamn person. If he were he wouldn't have been able to answer, the dark red behemoth rounded on him, he didn't even fire. The killer barrels out of the cell as other guards come rushing in, a dog snags him up and a third taser shot from a regular guard puts him down.

Elsewhere in the prison other volatile prisoners are all kicking off, like it's full moon. I realise too late I've forgotten to turn weapons free off, and gunfire starts ringing out all over the prison. Miraculously no-one is killed, but the infirmary looks like a MASH tent.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:04 am
by Spike88
I second the notion for more tools for dealing with legendardies. Food deliveries to cells, and the ability to station guards to a prisoner are a must. Maybe have the ability to restrain max sec prisoners whenever they leave their cell. They're pretty much the Hannibal Lecters of PA.

Also, Adam Baly's story is great.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:41 am
by xPyr0x
This is probably another bug not reported yet, but him killing your guards through the gate, well I bulldozed, and fenced in a square box in my canteen earlier and put a couple guards in it. The inmates could still kill the guards (who couldn't fight back) and yes guards can fire tazers and guns through the large doors.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:28 pm
by Jacq
stroberaver wrote:You can imagine the sinking feeling when I realised that metal detectors no longer explode when they're short circuited in water.

What if you put a washing machine in his cell and hook it up to a powerswitch?

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:39 pm
by icantnotthink
I feel like they shouldn't be unkillable. Making them stupidly strong is one thing, but they should die like anybody else if they are put through Shotgun Surgery.

Re: [suggestion] Legendary Prisoners and what to do next.

Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:27 pm
by McLumberjack
Sgt Patches is avenged! Oh man, you couldn't have written a more glorious end to this arsehole's journey.

Baly is in his yard, doing his usual thing (flipping out at nothing in particular; breaking shit). Tasers crackle to the usual effect, and with a resigned sigh I flip on free fire and order the guards to stand back... but what's this? A handler and his dog (Skittles Jr.) are heading to the cell. I order them away, fearing another canine catastrophe, but they ignore me. Everything seems to happen in slow motion: the dog yaps at the bars as the handler fumbles with his keys; the door swings wide; the legendary prisoner Baly stops hammering his yard bench into bloody splinters and turns; handler and dog step into the cell. Gladiators.

It is time to uphold their sworn duty: to protect benches at all costs. Nightstick and teeth bared, our heroes move in. With practised ease Baly does what Baly does best, snapping the handler's neck in his first strike. Snarling brown furriness lunges as the air is filled with fire and buckshot. Baly is down in the customary three shot salute... The smoke clears, and oh god. Oh Baly. What have you done.

His handler dead there is no one to call him off. His partner (only one day from retirement) was clearly the good cop in their relationship, and with his calming voice silenced forever there is only vengeance. Only Skittles.

Baly lies dead. His throat a ragged ruin. The tragedy of two lives cut short, one light, one dark. A moment of solemn silence is broken by someone in the prison yelling "Ha! Take that you dog killing maniac! Fuck you!" It's the prison's architect. He seems oddly invested for someone charged chiefly with designing and maintaining a prison. The guards glance away awkwardly as he snaps a photo of the scene, and laughs.


Skittles Jr. is nowhere to be seen, then a cheer goes up. He's found near the kitchens, loping purposefully through the prison towards the exit. There's no place for him here any more, not without Gary (the handler was called Gary). Steely eyes dead ahead, he pads off out of the prison and into our hearts. The Architect stands inside the perimeter fence, holding aloft a boombox.


Perhaps he'll befriend that boy.