A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

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DarknessEyes
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A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby DarknessEyes » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:22 pm

* Prisoner intake:
We should only be able to receive "med security prisoners" and manually change them to min or max if needed.
(Cash received per prisoner should be based on "sentence years" instead of security category.)

* Prisoners categories:
It doesn't make sense to have 5 categories. Its a mess with so many categories...
Merge "min security prisoners" and "protective custody prisoners" into "min security prisoners".
Merge "max security prisoners" and "super max prisoners" into "max security prisoners".

* Dog Handler:
The dogs are useless to find tunnels... I placed 20 dog handler before i open my prison and i got ALOTS of tunnel flags over the map (false positives).
I should prefer the old system having a chance to find tunnels instead of the current system...

* Shakedown:
Why the guards have a small chance to find tunnels during a shakedown?
I know the idea was to prevent people from leaving the game running over the night, but shakedown isn't an automatic option...

* Cop killer:
Once a fight start their marked to die by guards.
The guards keep attacking the cop killer prisoner even when hes handcuffed and getting moved into solitary by another guard.

* Tunnels and toilets:
WTH do we have to dismantle the toilet to find the tunnels?
A button "search tunnel in toilet" should be better....
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby thekillergreece » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:45 pm

For Cop Killer, you should have had read carefully but I will explain it better: Cop killer has killed a lot cops so guards will dislike him and may attempt to kill him when the prisoner is unconscious. Nothing bad, you would do the same if that guy killed your family ;)
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby balfro » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:50 pm

I think the prisoner categories are better this way. If you don´t like them. Then don´t use them.

The prisoners have traits. They have more dangerous traits if they are max security prisoners. And less if they are minimum. The prisoner genaration system therefor. Relies alot on having all 3 categories. And it´s good for the game too! (In my opinion)

Worst patch ever? Nope. I would say best. I have been playing for a long time. And my prisons just WORK! I need to edit the save file just to get them to kick off. This gives me additional challanges in my design and gameplay.

Summary: I totally disagree with you. :D :D
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby blipadouzi » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:01 pm

I wouldn't say this is the worst patch ever... but there are a few things that need to be ironed out and balanced (like most newly introduced features)

DarknessEyes wrote:* Prisoner intake:
We should only be able to receive "med security prisoners" and manually change them to min or max if needed.


I agree and disagree with this. I understand what you're saying that the different levels are too different from each other and a game can be manipulated by simply taking in min sec prisoners, that have next to no risk, and then changing their security level manually to get maximum funding. What I'd prefer to see is at the create of the map, an option to select your prison's security rating (call it a difficulty level if you want). Then as prisoners come in, as you suggested, triage them into various categories to sort and manage your prison.

So you'd in essence have (for example) a minimum security prison, with cascading levels of prisoners sorted into min, med, max, sup & PC.

(Cash received per prisoner should be based on "sentence years" instead of security category.)


I completely agree with this.

* Prisoners categories:
It doesn't make sense to have 5 categories. Its a mess with so many categories...
Merge "min security prisoners" and "protective custody prisoners" into "min security prisoners".
Merge "max security prisoners" and "super max prisoners" into "max security prisoners".


I disagree... min security prisoners can still kill PC prisoners, and SuperMax prisoners can still be a threat to Max prisoners.

* Dog Handler:
The dogs are useless to find tunnels... I placed 20 dog handler before i open my prison and i got ALOTS of tunnel flags over the map (false positives).
I should prefer the old system having a chance to find tunnels instead of the current system...


When a dog finds a potential spot, you need to manually take him and sniff around more extensively. If he just places 1 or 2 flags in the area, then it's a false positive... likely a gopher hole ;)

* Shakedown:
Why the guards have a small chance to find tunnels during a shakedown?
I know the idea was to prevent people from leaving the game running over the night, but shakedown isn't an automatic option...


During a shakedown, there is a very audible alarm that goes off... prisoners in neighbouring cells are being disturbed. There is a very obvious commotion going on in the prison that will alert the escapees to get back to their cells.

* Cop killer:
Once a fight start their marked to die by guards.
The guards keep attacking the cop killer prisoner even when hes handcuffed and getting moved into solitary by another guard.


This was well covered by thekillergreece

* Tunnels and toilets:
WTH do we have to dismantle the toilet to find the tunnels?
A button "search tunnel in toilet" should be better....


I count this up to human error (in-game). Maybe the guard is not thorough enough in his search... maybe the prisoner didn't bolt the toilet back down properly... maybe, maybe, maybe. It's easier just to have a 50/50 chance of discovering it, and 100% chance if they're not in their room.
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby mscansian » Sun Sep 28, 2014 3:19 pm

Sorry man, but I disagree with almost everything. Here is my opinion.

Prisoner Intake:
I partially agree. You could receive Min Sec prisoners and change them to Max Security and earn a lot o money. I think this is a bug. The money you receive should be based on the level the prisoner was when he arrived.
I disagree that you only should receive Med Sec. Prisoners. Prisons on the real world don't work this way, and also, by increasing the money you receive with the sentence length is only a way to induce players to let their prisoners kill each other.

Prisoner Categories:
Protective Custody is not the same as Min Security. You could have a very dangerous prisoner, that is marked to die. Why should you put him with the "well behave" prisoners?

Dogs:
I was not able to reproduce this.

Shakedown:
I don't really think we should nerf the game even more. Even with this update, the game is still pretty easy.

Cop Killer:
That's exactly the point! Don't leave this guy to fight 10 guards at the same time

Tunnels:
Same as Shakedown
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby CJH » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:10 pm

I infact liked this patch very much! Adds so much more too the game!
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby Quorg » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:21 pm

I agree that this patch is troublesome but for different reasons.

They introduced starvation without fixing the cook AI (such as not washing trays) so that in large prisons (>400) you risk having a massive die-off.
They should not have introduced starvation before fixing the cook AI.
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby CJH » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:23 pm

Quorg wrote:I agree that this patch is troublesome but for different reasons.

They introduced starvation without fixing the cook AI (such as not washing trays) so that in large prisons (>400) you risk having a massive die-off.
They should not have introduced starvation before fixing the cook AI.


Thats why the bug bash is coming now. It will all get fixed i bet.
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby xander » Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:39 pm

Quorg wrote:I agree that this patch is troublesome but for different reasons.

They introduced starvation without fixing the cook AI (such as not washing trays) so that in large prisons (>400) you risk having a massive die-off.
They should not have introduced starvation before fixing the cook AI.

There is a bit of a catch-22 there, in that the ability of prisoners to die of starvation has an effect on how the cook AI behaves (or, at least, it should). IV could have spent time changing the cook AI to work better under a no-starvation system only to discover that it is completely useless or far too effective under a starvation system. I hate to say it again, but that is how alpha software often works---new features are implemented, then the bugs are fixed. If you don't like that system, you might be better off waiting until the beta starts before playing Prison Architect.

As to the original post:

  • Prisoner Intake: The ability to accept minimum security prisoners and raise their security level to exploit the payment system has been around since different payouts for different security levels was implemented. This is a well-known bug and has nothing to do with alpha 25.
  • Prisoner Categories: With the CI system and the possibility that prisoners will be targeted for attack, the game really does need a way of segregating at-risk prisoners from the general population. Creating a new security level for those prisoners makes sense, since the segregation system in the game already works by security level. Can you offer a better solution for dealing with blown CIs?
  • Dog Handlers: My recollection is that under the old system, dogs would scratch-and-sniff at tunnels, but that they wouldn't necessarily discover a tunnel unless a prisoner was in it. The new system seems to be identical to the old, with the addition of flags. It seems that you are not so much complaining about the system in general, but about the false positive rate, which can probably be changed quite easily. Open a bug report, suggest that the false positive rate is too high, and watch as it is eventually brought down (or the system is changed entirely in a future release---remember, this is alpha software).

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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby Quorg » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:41 pm

xander wrote:
Quorg wrote:I agree that this patch is troublesome but for different reasons.

They introduced starvation without fixing the cook AI (such as not washing trays) so that in large prisons (>400) you risk having a massive die-off.
They should not have introduced starvation before fixing the cook AI.

There is a bit of a catch-22 there, in that the ability of prisoners to die of starvation has an effect on how the cook AI behaves (or, at least, it should). IV could have spent time changing the cook AI to work better under a no-starvation system only to discover that it is completely useless or far too effective under a starvation system. I hate to say it again, but that is how alpha software often works---new features are implemented, then the bugs are fixed. If you don't like that system, you might be better off waiting until the beta starts before playing Prison Architect.

Too late; I'm already hooked :(
But fair enough point
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby Zaney » Sun Sep 28, 2014 5:48 pm

There are only few points I agree with.
the first one I agree with is the fact that you can take in low risk prisoners and change their category to max.

the other point I agree with is the false positives the dogs gives you. During a typical day in my prison I get a few false positives from my dogs and I have begun to ignore them. Maybe I will pay more attention to the markers once I start patrolling in those area's where the prisoners are likely to dig.

As for what others have mentioned, then I agree with the whole food, cook and starvation issue.

One thing I wish for, is the ability to order nurses to heal a prisoner, instead of ordering them to walk/run up to the injured prisoner and hope they are close enough to realize that the prisoner needs healing.

but all in all, I think this is one of the best releases :)
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby Kilmannan » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:04 pm

DarknessEyes wrote:An unjustified title with no substance in the main post


Your emotive and exaggerated title reflects some of the awful suggestions you make in your thread.

Why would I want Protective mixed with Minimum security? If you can't handle the two new extra levels, then, wow. Don't use them.

Why would I want to have to manually change my prisoner security rating? What if I want to run a Max sec prison? I need to change everyone?
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby ble210 » Sun Sep 28, 2014 6:52 pm

I disagree with all the OP's points.

Being able to accept different types of prisoners is great- you're suggestion is just gamey.

I like having all the categories. Merging min security and protective custody? That makes no sense and its better to have them separate- you can customize your prison much better that way.

The dogs are quite good at finding tunnels as is. And the false positives keep you on your toes. In fact, I think dogs are maybe overpowered as is. The new system is way, way better.

Shakedowns should only have a small chance of finding a tunnel. The idea is the prisoners are trying to hide their actions. If shakedowns automatically found tunnels, that would nerf tunnels to the point of making them meaningless.

The reason we have to remove the toilet to find the tunnel is intentional- it makes finding the source of the tunnel a lot of work, and you have to be strategic about which ones you choose to remove. Your suggestion would, again, make finding tunnels too easy.

In short, I disagree with everything you are saying
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby DarknessEyes » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:46 pm

thekillergreece wrote:For Cop Killer, you should have had read carefully but I will explain it better: Cop killer has killed a lot cops so guards will dislike him and may attempt to kill him when the prisoner is unconscious. Nothing bad, you would do the same if that guy killed your family ;)

Hes already handcuffed and getting escorted to solitairy by a guard while other guards still attacking him...
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Re: A25 - Worst patch ever IMO...

Postby DarknessEyes » Sun Sep 28, 2014 8:51 pm

About the exploit of changing min sec to max sec to increase income.
Thats why i said that:
* the cash received per inmates should be based on "sentence years" instead of "security level".
* We should only receive med sec inmates from deliveries and then assign them manually to each category based on their behave.

ble210 wrote:The dogs are quite good at finding tunnels as is. And the false positives keep you on your toes. In fact, I think dogs are maybe overpowered as is. The new system is way, way better.
Shakedowns should only have a small chance of finding a tunnel. The idea is the prisoners are trying to hide their actions. If shakedowns automatically found tunnels, that would nerf tunnels to the point of making them meaningless.
The reason we have to remove the toilet to find the tunnel is intentional- it makes finding the source of the tunnel a lot of work, and you have to be strategic about which ones you choose to remove. Your suggestion would, again, make finding tunnels too easy.


Once you get over 1000 high sec inmates you will see :)

mscansian wrote:Cop Killer:
That's exactly the point! Don't leave this guy to fight 10 guards at the same time

Some guards refuse to move when you pause the game and order them to move away from the unconscious cop killer... They really want them dead...
The guards that kill a cop killer should become law enforcer inmates (25 years in ur prison).
And need a new cop killer status "prison guard killer" that is obtained after killing a guard at your prison.

About the starvation... i didnt read it on patch notes... maybe i missed it...
Do inmates starve while in solitary???

EDITED:
Now also having the inmates escorted to medical bed before solitary... they get healed and start attacking the nearest guard.... Then they get healed and do the same... endless loop of violence. lol
The medical facility is a battle field. LMAO
Finnaly got one of them handcuffed... and since the crimes stack... he will be in solitary for a long long time...

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