Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

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xPyr0x
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xPyr0x » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:57 pm

I believe introversion will come through with the game, why wouldn't they, or more or less why did you purchase it if you didn't think they would finish it. Anyone could of google searched and downloaded both the game and patch log. Every other game they have completed and the money they have now is pocket change compared to when its polished and sold on steam. At such time it will probably have thousands of mods and hopefully be bug free (and less lag!) in a couple years. I just hope they finish before 2020 LOL.
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby 5hifty » Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:07 am

xPyr0x wrote:Every other game they have completed


Subversion.
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:40 am

5hifty wrote:
xPyr0x wrote:Every other game they have completed

Subversion.

Which they never asked anyone to pay for, and for which they never had a decently playable demo version, let alone a reasonably complete alpha version. If we are going to count projects that IV announced but never did anything with, we should also add Chronometer to the list.

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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby mazetar » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:57 am

I understand the concern but for a company like IV there's not a chance of them not delivering.
They have years of experience and have over it's many years shown that they deliver their products.

I don't want to repeat what Xander and others have said above to the letter but I agree with them.
From a software developers perspective I'd say PA is going a long nicely and there's no reason to worry :)

Oh and for the whole roadmap thing :)

Let's consider the fact that software developers needs to have this in order to program features without making a mess, yes they have one.
Why isn't it public then? I believe the answer is quite common to developers, to avoid expectency and rushing.
Features planned may be changed in how they work or even scrapped or benched when internal testing and prototyping shows them to be flawed, or they may take way longer to implement than the suggested ballpark.

Looking at other alpha/early access games you can see the good and the bad of both sides.
There's many good things about public roadmaps too, but it's not uncommon to keep it internal.
Besides even those having a public roadmap has a larger internal one.

So the lack of public goals and plans isn't a cause for worry, neither is the recent happenings in the small-scale dev community :)
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby CJH » Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:40 pm

I have full confidence in Introversion, they have kept producing good games for many years, and haven't failed so far on their alpha developments. In PA i say they have done extremely well! Ofc they are not perfect but they have added very good inputs over the alphas and the building process is going forward. Sales I'm not sure about but too say the least I'm not worried about their cash-flow ;). So for these guys as early access devs, if they keep up the good work as they've been doing so far i would happily back them in the future aswell!

If they would not complete this game its basically bye bye to them in the gamin world i would say. They don't seem to be those kinds of people either. They seem to have it under control. They are students from Imperial University for crying out loud :P
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby dogsbody » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:13 am

Plus they do a pretty decent job of making sure a couple of new things are working every month, and taking the time to show them to everyone in an Alpha Video. I'm sure there are companies out there who would just release a couple of updates a year, but IV have done 1 a month and kept everyone up to date with what's new, which allows everyone to see how things have developed from A1.

Fair play to them, as long as they feel they can keep it up, I'll still tune in every month. I've more than got my money's worth from these 24 Alphas, and considering some of the other stuff out there, it's been darn good value for money!
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:10 pm

I expend the last couple days reading extensively about the matter (EarlyAccess mostly). Well, yesterday news, Planetary Annihilation, another KickStarter project, just 'finished' and the ratings are sub-optimal to say the least. Abismal in some cases. The project was developed by Uber, a company composed by several veteran developers. The news really speaks for it self.

This model of KickStarter / Early Access seems to be inherently broken. You fundamentaly have outsourced the Tester part of it for the consumer. You claim that you paid for a game that have 'good value', but in fact you are payng to test something half-finished, do do someone's else paid job. To simplify, you (us for that matter) are payng to taste raw cake batter. Sure tastes good, but by the time the said cake is ready we are too full to continue tasting it. Hell, I even got 350h of play myself and I think it was a pretty nice ride indeed. =)

But I am feed up. Yep, PA seems brilliant in most cases, but is unfinished, is a half-baked cake. Sure the community is very (like very much a LOT) enthusiastic about it, no doubt about that. Mostly because the game gives the impression of a growing thing, that it will have improvements along the time. But it could be delivered as it is right now, as many companies, good softwarehouses indeed, did. This model incentives what they call an unfinishable game. When the developer feel that it's time, they just pack and leave.

There are some old projects that did it diferently. Get a finished project and mod it, heavily in some cases. It's the case of Open Transport Tycoon (that I've been playing since the original) and Counter Strike. In most cases, the result is awesome. Maybe it is a better way to do things, just pulling out something from the top of my head.

In the case of Prison Architect I will play the waiting game. Gonna play it when, and if, it's done. Had my fair share of raw batter (yummy! :P), now let's save some space for the cake. Like xander said, maybe Early Access is not for every one. Who plays more than 200h of an unfinished project anyway? I did, and probably had as much fun as you did. But it's time to wait.

When I first saw the KickStarter model I though it will change the game industry, turn it head over heels for a good measure. Shame. I was wrong. I hope I am wrong again. :wink:


My honest good luck and best wishes,
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:17 pm

Kezarus wrote:This model of KickStarter / Early Access seems to be inherently broken. You fundamentaly have outsourced the Tester part of it for the consumer. You claim that you paid for a game that have 'good value', but in fact you are payng to test something half-finished, do do someone's else paid job. To simplify, you (us for that matter) are payng to taste raw cake batter. Sure tastes good, but by the time the said cake is ready we are too full to continue tasting it. Hell, I even got 350h of play myself and I think it was a pretty nice ride indeed. =)

IV have never paid their beta testers---they have always been volunteers. So no, I am not doing a job that someone would otherwise be paid to do. I am paying to do so, but that was my decision, and made it understanding exactly what I was doing. Your analogy would be better if you suggested that I were paying to test a cookbook---I am eating a lot of cakes made from recipes that are not complete and still in need of work. Some of them don't rise well, and some are too sweet, but I enjoy the process and derive pleasure from it.

And, just for relevance:
Kezarus wrote:Like xander said, maybe Early Access is not for every one.


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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kilmannan » Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:01 pm

I've seen so many of these posts lately all over the internet on various EA failures.

Where it's due, it's due. DoubleFine abandoned Spacebase because funds dried up, Planetary Annihilation has been released with lots missing, but PA is still in development, it's still being improved, it's currently a fairly complete game.

If people are kicking off about PA now, then that is just downright impatience talking. There have been no warning bells or signs to be concerned about yet, and there probably wont be as it's IV who are about as homegrown as it gets.
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:20 am

xander wrote:I am paying to do so, but that was my decision


Yep, your decision to be a tester nonetheless. I wasn't saying it only about IV. I was pretty broad, wasn't I? But in any case, if IV is smart enough and have a broad fan base as enthusiastic about it's work as it have, it's only logical to get some of those people to test the game. If they are willing to pay to enter the project, hey, bonus! But the job as a Tester still exist in software development. It's paid, yes it is. But if you enjoy doing that, hey, it's tottaly acceptable. I respect that. I did enjoy it myself for a time.

And who said I was "kicking off". Hahaha. :lol: I just don't want to play a half-finished game anymore. I played enough. 350h if a lot for me, maybe not for everyone. Just that. Gonna play it again when, and if, it's done. Be it tomorrow, be it 2 to 5 years from now. I can pretty much ignore it until then. =)

And if it doesn't finish, like the majority of the others KickStarter / Early Access projects, well, tough luck. But hey, you (us) enjoyed the game as much as you like. The only shame is that this type of business practice is bad for the market and it was a relly promisse thing. I want to be wrong on that one.

Cheers =)

p.s.: just to clarify, majority it's not all. there are some few exceptions
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:45 am

Kezarus wrote:But the job as a Tester still exist in software development. It's paid, yes it is.

Not if you are testing for a company as small as IV. As I said above, IV have never paid their beta testers (unless you are suggesting that the free copies of Darwinia, Multiwinia, and Defon that I have have are payment in kind---in which case IV has paid me a grand total of about $100 to test their games).

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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:49 am

Yep, the fact that they don't pay their Testers don't change the fact that a Tester is a paid job. A paid office job. Regular and normal job. =)

IV have their fans that are willing to test. The fanbase have fun, IV don't have to pay for that. Everybody wins. Got it? =)
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:18 am

Kezarus wrote:Yep, the fact that they don't pay their Testers don't change the fact that a Tester is a paid job. A paid office job. Regular and normal job. =)

I have never claimed that it wasn't a paid job. I have claimed that it is not a paid job if you are testing IV's software (or, frankly, the software produced by most independent developers). You have argued that people are paying to do a job that people get paid for. In a very broad sense, you are correct. However, that is largely not relevant to *this case*, since IV have never paid their beta testers. It is not relevant to most small studios, since most small studios don't have the money to pay testers

Your argument that people are paid to test games is akin to claiming that people are paid to play basketball. Sure, some people get paid to do that job (either as professional athletes or via scholarships). The vast majority of players are not paid, and many players pay-to-play (in recreational leagues or in classes, for instance).

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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:35 am

xander wrote:I have never claimed that it wasn't a paid job.


You pretty much gave that impression saying (insisting really) that IV never paid their testers. Yep, they are voluntary. Why are you revolving around it so much? :lol:

xander wrote: Your argument that people are paid to test games is akin to claiming that people are paid to play basketball.


The difference maybe is that when you pay to play basketball in a recreation manner there isn't someone charging tickets at the door. Or... is it?

Nonetheless, have fun. I had mine. Let's move on. :)

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