Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

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Kezarus
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Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 1:50 pm

I'm worried. In the past weeks the game dev world had some distubing news about companies that kickstart games and then publish it incomplete or worse, abandon it.

It's all cool to back a game project, we know that we don't bought a complete game at first, but we invest in a project. Prison Architect is a good case scenario so far. But they don't have a roadmap or a list containing what is left to Prison Architect be in a stage of a complete version.

If the sales of Prison Architect diwndle will IV just shut the project and left it incomplete? What do they need to finish it? When?

I honestly doen't care about waiting. If they took another year or two, fine by me. I'm worried that they simply abandon the project, that looks awesome so far. And if we, the backers, don't ask them these questions nobody will. That's why I think you should worry about it too.
Last edited by Kezarus on Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby Person012345 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 2:45 pm

When you buy an alpha game, buy it with the view that every update could be the last but that it isn't planned to be. I currently have 231hrs in PA, I have gotten my monies worth even if they released it tomorrow. I have faith that IV will continue development for as long as is viable though. And I think that if they do wrap it up they will at least try to tie up loose ends rather than just releasing it in an obvious alpha state with features very blatantly missing.
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby knoest26 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:35 pm

Don't worry, Prison Architect has earned IV enough money to last for another like 4 years if it would stop selling right now. We are guaranteed to see at least one more update but I don't see a reason to worry about IV not 'finishing' PA.

Plus, I believe Introversion will release the source code for Prison Architect so if they don't want to finish it someone from the community will
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:18 pm

It will be a good policy for them to make a roadmap. What are the intended features? No one knows. It's a pretty standard request to know what will be developed. If they decide to add some features out of roadmap, hey, bonus! I don't think it's too much to ask for, is it?
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby learn_more » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:25 pm

Kezarus wrote:It will be a good policy for them to make a roadmap. What are the intended features? No one knows. It's a pretty standard request to know what will be developed. If they decide to add some features out of roadmap, hey, bonus! I don't think it's too much to ask for, is it?


oh you mean something like this:
http://bugs.introversion.co.uk/roadmap_page.php


also, why is the title in capslock?
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby knoest26 » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:26 pm

Remember this thread? Let's not go there anymore
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 4:57 pm

Corrected the title in Caps. =)

Well, that is not a complete roadmap, is it? That is a small list containing bugs to be corrected in a specific version. A complete roadmap shows short and long term goals.

It's pretty crazy to enter a project without know where it's going. Even worst to consider it normal. It's not. You and me are backing them. It's that hard to get a feature list? Again, no prob if they decide to implement extra stuff out of it, bonus!

IV so far is a good case scenario. It will just be good that they stay on track. Many softwarehouses drop the ball recently. If you don't ask for the bare minimum, if you are happy with the game the way it is, why should anyone care? There is nobody else to ask, just us.
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Re: WILL INTROVERSION DELIVER PRISON ARCHITECT?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:11 pm

knoest26 wrote:Remember this thread? Let's not go there anymore


Oh, I remember this tread. Maybe I even posted something there, can't remember.

knoest26, I'm sorry to crash on this topic again, man. But to me is standard procedure to have this kind of "list of features". I am a software developer myself (no big deal, srly), we have a huge to do list a and big plan draw showing where are we going. Without a plan like this, things just ran out of control.

If we don't care, why should anyone?
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Alpatron » Mon Sep 22, 2014 5:54 pm

Kezarus wrote:I'm worried. In the past weeks the game dev world had some distubing news about companies that kickstart games and then publish it incomplete or worse, abandon it.

It's all cool to back a game project, we know that we don't bought a complete game at first, but we invest in a project. Prison Architect is a good case scenario so far. But they don't have a roadmap or a list containing what is left to Prison Architect be in a stage of a complete version.

If the sales of Prison Architect diwndle will IV just shut the project and left it incomplete? What do they need to finish it? When?

I honestly doen't care about waiting. If they took another year or two, fine by me. I'm worried that they simply abandon the project, that looks awesome so far. And if we, the backers, don't ask them these questions nobody will. That's why I think you should worry about it too.


They have a roadmap it's just not public.
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:05 pm

Alpatron wrote:They have a roadmap it's just not public.


Really? Did they say it? Why the secrecy? It's not like PA is a internal development project. It's openly backed by us. Why are you so confortable with the fact that they hold this kind of info back?
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Mon Sep 22, 2014 7:33 pm

Kezarus wrote:Why are you so confortable with the fact that they hold this kind of info back?

I am comfortable with IV being secretive because they have a 13+ year history of being in business and producing good games. They are not perfect, but they are pretty upfront with their problems when they occur. I don't need to know every last detail of what they have planned, and an happy to wait and see what they do. If the of lack of publicly available information is not something that you can accept, then you probably shouldn't have given IV your money.

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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby Kezarus » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:33 pm

xander wrote:I am comfortable with IV being secretive because they have a 13+ year history of being in business and producing good games. They are not perfect, but they are pretty upfront with their problems when they occur. I don't need to know every last detail of what they have planned, and an happy to wait and see what they do. If the of lack of publicly available information is not something that you can accept, then you probably shouldn't have given IV your money.

xander


Well, see, this is the kind of behavior that I cannot grasp. You are backing someone to do something out of pure faith, xander.

Of course I think IV is a good softwarehouse and I belive PA is a good project, hence I put a little money in this project (and other fellow members did too). The matter is that this relationship between developer and us is naive at best. In a perfect platonic world maybe this works just fine, but without a producer the responsability to sugest a path or question the developer rest on our shoulders.

And this kind of request, for a simple feature plan, a roadmap, is standard procedure. It's the kind of thing a software client asks from a developer in a regular basis.

This early access / kickstarter / alpha model is a very interesting way to develop games, but without interest from the backers in the bare basics, well, I don't see much future in this format. Why are you not interested?
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:30 pm

Kezarus wrote:You are backing someone to do something out of pure faith, xander.

I wouldn't say that. "Faith" implies belief without evidence. I feel that I have sufficient evidence to give IV my money. I cited some of that evidence above (e.g. a history of producing good games and letting the community know when things are in the shitter). Moreover, I don't *expect* the finished game ever, and would not be upset in the least if a finished game is never delivered, as I have already poured enough hours into the game to justify the amount I spent (on a per-hour basis, Prison Architect is now ahead of the $4/hr that I might pay for a movie or the $2-3/hr that I pay for cheesy scifi books, and is barely edged out in terms of media consumption by the approximately $0.50/hr that I give to NPR to listen to the news in the morning or afternoon). If another version never comes out, I will be happy with my purchase (and way happy enough with my purchase last year that I splurged and upgraded from the basic package to the face-in-game package).

Faith has very little to do with it. I've gotten what I paid for. It can be argued that at the time I initially paid for Prison Architect, I didn't get what I was paying for, but I would bring that around again and note that I didn't pay everything upfront, and only put in additional money when I felt that I *was* getting what I was paying for.

Again, if you demand future returns or a roadmap or more communication from the developer, then IV is probably not a company that you want to buy from early-access---what until the game is officially released (if it is every officially released). In that sense, you can treat Prison Architect like any other game that isn't early-access.

Kezarus wrote:In a perfect platonic world maybe this works just fine, but without a producer the responsability to sugest a path or question the developer rest on our shoulders.

You don't get my "faith" in IV, which is cool. I don't understand the feeling of entitlement that you seem to have. You are not an investor. You are not stock holder. You are not in any position of responsibility or power over Introversion Software. You are some guy on the internet who pre-ordered a game and (as a bonus) have been given access to early builds of the game. IV owe you a finished game when it is done, or (maybe?) a refund if it is never done.

Kezarus wrote:Why are you not interested?

It isn't that I am not interested---I would love to see a roadmap---I just don't place it high on my priority list. Very near the bottom, in fact.

xander
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby deslona » Tue Sep 23, 2014 12:58 am

Having worked in development before I can understand the reluctance of any software company to be public about what they are working on. For several reasons.
Making promises that the developer doesn't keep can really rile up the player community, even more-so when the community has already payed for the product and is expecting (based on trust/faith) that it will be completed.
Developers talking about their hopes and reams for the game/project can also be very dangerous as it can lead to gossip and rumor about features that many be added/removed. In the end you just get hype or vitriol.
Some things that we (the community) really want may take several updates to implement with no real effect in the mean time (laying the groundwork/changing systems)
It can be demoralizing as a developer to read x is bugged post and then some not-so-nice posts about your work. "Don't read your youtube comments" comes to mind here.

The 'middle ground' is developers who speak directly to the community and are direct and clear. A screenshot here or a "got x working" there or twitter/forums. Something that HAS been completed or ready to be announced between updates. And then never look at comments made.

I think some viewers of this forum think there is little communication from the developers not their moderator sycophants. That said, as I said in my opening sentence, I completely understand why.

I'm sure there is a piece of paper on a wall somewhere in their office with a "must complete" and gangs (for example, I'm just guessing) is on that list as well as other features.
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Re: Will IntroVersion deliver Prison Architect?

Postby xander » Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:55 am

deslona wrote:The 'middle ground' is developers who speak directly to the community and are direct and clear. A screenshot here or a "got x working" there or twitter/forums. Something that HAS been completed or ready to be announced between updates. And then never look at comments made.

I agree that this would be ideal, and I think that IV are generally doing a reasonably good job at it (though not perfect by any stretch of the imagination). I don't have a twitter, so I can't be sure, but isn't this what IV have been doing with their twitter account? What about the several reddit AMA threads in which they have participated? Do the monthly release videos not count?

deslona wrote:...moderator sycophants.

And who might this be referencing? Or are you attacking strawmen?

xander

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