[SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

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[SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby Praetyre » Wed Apr 30, 2014 9:09 pm

Note: Part of this post concerns the as-of-yet only moderately popular Realistic Mod, available on Steam Workshop. The mechanic of this mod requiring all materials and objects to be shipped in via truck presents a special issue that makes this particular game function much more critical than usual. Regardless of whether or not such a mechanic is ever incorporated into the vanilla game, I believe my suggestions here can still be of use.

My two suggestions overlap; as such, I am offering them both in one post. If this is a violation of board policy, feel free to split them and link the other thread here.

Presently, one road leads down your prison, and all goods and persons are shipped in identically sized cargo trucks, excepting the emergency services and a certain other group I won't mention for fear of spoilers. While I'm certain the developers have many plans to change this (I've seen fanmade maps with roads all about and the recent HD Mod (made by but not exclusively for Polish players) has turned the existing trucks into proper closed vehicles, though solely cosmetically at this stage, I would like to offer a few suggestions nonetheless, for the sake of discussion if nothing else;

PART I: TRANSPORTATION SUGGESTIONS

1: There should be a new Administrative Staff member; I'm not certain what an appropriate name would be; but their function would be to unlock the Transportation Management tab, which would allow one to schedule when vehicles were allowed and of what kind. Vehicles would be divided into Supplies (Food, Workshop and Forestry), Garbage, and Building Materials. Persons would not, at least at present, be alterable. A dual Regime screen, essentially. For added strategy, one might even add another layer of it by requiring an additional staff member below said administrative staff (both would have offices, though the former would obviously demand better accomodations than the latter) per X combiend Delivery and Garbage (or maybe just one or the other, or one for each) tiles, probably with the office of the subordinate officer being directly adjacent to said tiles.

2: The number of vehicles should be expanded; Cargo Trucks would remain (with 8 capacity), as would Riot Vans (though I'd still like to see better graphics for these) and Ambulances (though I like the HD Mod's Hearse graphic; if only they could be split so that the Ambulance was still around for the Paramedics). The newcomers would be Garbage Trucks (8 capacity; at present this would make a useful stopgap against mixing of dumping and retrieval duty for Workmen), Buses (8 capacity, again useful for such seperation), Staff Cars (1 capacity), and finally, a Porsche (1 capacity). You may wonder what these last three are used for. Well...

3: Staff would no longer instantly appear while hired. They would arrive the next day, via Buses, at the same time as your Prisoners, who would also arrive on seperate Buses (though not on the same Buses; it is so weird when prisoners get shipped apart from each other with bricks and the like), with the special exception of Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Psychologists, the Foreman and the Chief (Staff Cars) and, of course, your Warden would arrive in the Porsche.

4: This would be all but impossible to rectify retroactively for people who got the game early (such as myself), but what about the option to get additional road built? This could work in a static way (buying additional stretches through a similar process to one getting additional land) or a dynamic way (laying out the necessary materials; perhaps you could make it an object though I'm not sure how that'd gel with the Road Gate; you may need special code for it. On top of that, a dynamic approach may result in horizontal travel; which is iffy, to say the least.

5: When a SuperMax prisoners or other such VIP arrives, they are escorted by a massive convoy which requires you to clear at least several hours for their usage. As an undocumented side effect, said convoy would also come to your aid should violence break out near the road, in a manner similar to that a certain endgame scenario.

PART II: STAFF SUGGESTIONS

1: On top of my previous staff suggestions, there would be new staff mechanics; Workmen/Gardeners/Janitors could only be hired with the Foreman in place, Guards/Armed Guards/Dog Handlers with the Chief, and to get past 10 Doctors you'd need to hire some sort of medical chief. Hiring anybody would require a Warden, of course.

2: Much like Dwarf Fortress, staff would demand better quality offices in accordance with their role and perhaps even the prisons size and reputation; this would be fulfilled in more or less the same manner, with size, decorations (including choice of materials) and objects factoring into it. Finally, a reward for putting a Big-Screen TV and Superior Bed in your Warden's mansion!

3: Your Warden can be directly controlled by you using essentially the same mechanics as the control-a-prisoner feature (which makes a lot of sense, when you think about it), with the ability to interact anywhere around your prison in any way he pleases. You could throw in easter eggs for this; I'm sure cinema will provide plenty of inspiration in this regard. Also, though I realise someone beat me to posting the suggestion elsewhere, his (or her?) death would be a non-standard game over.

4: One-of-a-kind staff (that is, your Warden, Foreman and Chief as of writing) would carry special all-access keys, adding additional realism as well as an additional incentive to keep them safe. They should also be MUCH more expensive to hire, say by a factor of ten or so. They would be free for the first hire, providing even more incentive for said protection.

5: A special object, the Control Center, would be available in your Warden and/or Chief's Offices and required to issue the Lockdown order. It would be a "super" version of any presumed future block control centers (the Alcatraz keys video being a recent prominent example).

6: Doctors should require Offices. Their demands in this fields should be roughly on par with those of Psychologists and Accountants. I'm not sure what they would do in the offices; perhaps occasional breaks to file paperwork or some consultation option similar to the psych?

7A: This is much more long term, and like the roads suggestion would probably have to have some kind of grandfather clause for older players (maybe the same way the failure conditions have it), but how about requiring accomodations for the staff themselves? Parking lots (they wouldn't actually use them; you'd just need to place one space for each Doctors/Lawyers/Accountants/Psychologist and VIP spaces for the Foreman and the Chief and the best space of all for the Warden. Spaces would be outdoor "rooms" defined by certain materials using a special sort of room mechanic; the closest thing I can think of other than indoor rooms is fences. Better spaces would require additional accomodations, perhaps even a special valet staff member and/or covering, as well as wider and larger spaces.

7B: Guards would need Lockers, though they'd be only $100 and the existing lockers would be renamed Armed Guard Lockers, as would Workmen and Chefs. Staff would also require their own restroom facilities, and would fulfill their own Food need better with various vending machines placed around your prison (like Theme Hospital, you could make a quick buck with them and maybe use them on your prisoners too, especially if/when the Commissary is added; imagine a totally busted machine leaking stacks of snacks to your prisoners delight; a real order concern indeed). Port-A-Potties ($100) would be available prior to your prison's first arrivals so that your Workmen could fulfill their needs without you needing to construct extensive facilities for them, and they would carry their tools with them (I hope to see staff carrying more things in future; not only should prisoners be able to steal their uniforms, but construction tools and materials (though not just ones carried by staff) and kitchen equipment should not be off the table (so to speak) either).

P.S: Z-Levels:

Assuming these are ever implemented, I would like to suggest it be done in the manner of Dwarf Fortress, with staircases and 5x5 elevator shafts with 3x3 elevators (with double-sized, staff and VIP elevators as well, like in SimTower), as well as SimTower-esque emergency fire exits, providing means onward and upward. Layers would only be generated when the transportational object (for lack of a better term) was placed, and the player would be prompted before placing such an object if it would result in such a generation; this would greatly reduce CPU strain and generally resemble the land grant system. The most major difficulty I can see (aside from pathing) is accomodating this from a sniper/viewpoint perspective; a special algorithm may be required to accomodate multistory buildings, especially from an external viewpoint of ones of various heights).
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby ouyin2000 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:22 pm

Welcome to the forums. Say 'hi' to Xander our resident douchetroll.
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby Tarô11 » Wed Apr 30, 2014 10:28 pm

ouyin2000 wrote:Welcome to the forums. Say 'hi' to Xander our resident douchetroll.


What did he do to you ? He is not a douchetroll and you should show him more respect...
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby christhekiller » Thu May 01, 2014 10:13 am

Yea, Xander isn't a douchetroll he's trying to make these forums a better place and posting one suggestion per post really helps keep things organised better and insures each suggestion gets its own deserves attention.

Anywho,

Praetyre wrote:PART I: TRANSPORTATION SUGGESTIONS

1: There should be a new Administrative Staff member; I'm not certain what an appropriate name would be; but their function would be to unlock the Transportation Management tab, which would allow one to schedule when vehicles were allowed and of what kind. Vehicles would be divided into Supplies (Food, Workshop and Forestry), Garbage, and Building Materials. Persons would not, at least at present, be alterable. A dual Regime screen, essentially. For added strategy, one might even add another layer of it by requiring an additional staff member below said administrative staff (both would have offices, though the former would obviously demand better accomodations than the latter) per X combiend Delivery and Garbage (or maybe just one or the other, or one for each) tiles, probably with the office of the subordinate officer being directly adjacent to said tiles.


I don't like this. Primarily because it seems unnecessary, things are delivered/ picked up when they're needed and I'd rather get everything picked up immediately than when I schedule it. Secondarily because it adds clutter to an already pretty clutter UI. Perhaps this could be late stage Beta or full release functions but until then. Nah.

2: The number of vehicles should be expanded; Cargo Trucks would remain (with 8 capacity), as would Riot Vans (though I'd still like to see better graphics for these) and Ambulances (though I like the HD Mod's Hearse graphic; if only they could be split so that the Ambulance was still around for the Paramedics). The newcomers would be Garbage Trucks (8 capacity; at present this would make a useful stopgap against mixing of dumping and retrieval duty for Workmen), Buses (8 capacity, again useful for such seperation), Staff Cars (1 capacity), and finally, a Porsche (1 capacity). You may wonder what these last three are used for. Well...

3: Staff would no longer instantly appear while hired. They would arrive the next day, via Buses, at the same time as your Prisoners, who would also arrive on seperate Buses (though not on the same Buses; it is so weird when prisoners get shipped apart from each other with bricks and the like), with the special exception of Doctors, Lawyers, Accountants, Psychologists, the Foreman and the Chief (Staff Cars) and, of course, your Warden would arrive in the Porsche.


Cargo Trucks, Riot Vans, and Ambulances yes to remaining as they are now
Garbage Trucks, maybe although I think they should have a much larger capacity and perhaps even come with a garbageman or two to help and/ or soley do the garbage. I say maybe however, because Cargo Trucks are okay although I am occasionally, on my most OCD days bothers by it
Buses Yea I would like prisoners and staff arriving in on buses. But perhaps double the capacity to 16 as most buses are much larger than only 8 and, ya know, double seats usually.
Staff Cars Meh. Either all staff (except maybe guards) arrive via Staff Cars, or none do. Furthermore, no to the Porsche, completely unnecessary, a staff car should be plenty fine for my wardens. Also, a capacity of 4 or 5 as most cars can seat 4 or 5, and ya know, having 4 or more cars arrive at teh same time will be too cluttered.

Furthermore, I'd say staff drive in as soon as they are hired. Not tomorrow, not after breakfast, now. And as I said, all staff (except guards) arrive via staff car, or they all arrive via bus.

4: This would be all but impossible to rectify retroactively for people who got the game early (such as myself), but what about the option to get additional road built? This could work in a static way (buying additional stretches through a similar process to one getting additional land) or a dynamic way (laying out the necessary materials; perhaps you could make it an object though I'm not sure how that'd gel with the Road Gate; you may need special code for it. On top of that, a dynamic approach may result in horizontal travel; which is iffy, to say the least.


Nah. The one stretch of road is fine. More road adds unnecessary problems (one of which you pointed out).

5: When a SuperMax prisoners or other such VIP arrives, they are escorted by a massive convoy which requires you to clear at least several hours for their usage. As an undocumented side effect, said convoy would also come to your aid should violence break out near the road, in a manner similar to that a certain endgame scenario.


Not a bad suggestion, per say. But clearing for them to arrive hours in advance seems unnecessary and I'm pretty sure prisoners are randomly "built" when they're arriving, not when hours in advance. Perhaps just have an armed guard or two come off with them and escort them to the cell and then leave. A huge convoy again, would be clutter, and I need to get these prisoners off the buses quickly since they're cluttering up the road.


PART II: STAFF SUGGESTIONS

1: On top of my previous staff suggestions, there would be new staff mechanics; Workmen/Gardeners/Janitors could only be hired with the Foreman in place, Guards/Armed Guards/Dog Handlers with the Chief, and to get past 10 Doctors you'd need to hire some sort of medical chief. Hiring anybody would require a Warden, of course.


Maybe... This whole thing is a big resounding, maybe. Buuuuut
Foreman hires No to the workmen, as you get them when you start and may need to hire more before you hire a Foreman. It already sort of works that you can't hire janitors or gardeners without the Foreman as you can't get them until he researches them and now you need them and you need to keep him around to train prisoners in the workshop.
Chief hires No to the guards, you'll need them before you get your Chief usually. And the big resounding maybe to the other two.
Warden hires No to needing him to hire workmen (as above). Maybe to needing him to hire Chefs/ Guards as you may or may not want Chefs and Guards before you get the Warden here, although I'm leaning towards yes. And a, sure, why not, for the rest.
Medical Chief Nah, unless he (or she) adds some other sort of affect to the game I don't see their point. And, because of that it adds an unnecessary office.

2: Much like Dwarf Fortress, staff would demand better quality offices in accordance with their role and perhaps even the prisons size and reputation; this would be fulfilled in more or less the same manner, with size, decorations (including choice of materials) and objects factoring into it. Finally, a reward for putting a Big-Screen TV and Superior Bed in your Warden's mansion!


Maybe, I can see this being more late-game as tracking staff needs (on top of prisoner needs) might be something that slower computers will have trouble handling at the moment, so perhaps with future handling. But as for the rest, nah. Perhaps you might want to add TVs and couches to your Wardens office to make it more like the Warden lives on site for aesthetic purposes, but I don't really think it should be anything more than an aesthetic. Although I do frequently add couches to psychologist offices for prisoner-laying-on purposes (which doesn't pan out D:).

3: Your Warden can be directly controlled by you using essentially the same mechanics as the control-a-prisoner feature (which makes a lot of sense, when you think about it), with the ability to interact anywhere around your prison in any way he pleases. You could throw in easter eggs for this; I'm sure cinema will provide plenty of inspiration in this regard. Also, though I realise someone beat me to posting the suggestion elsewhere, his (or her?) death would be a non-standard game over.


Maybe. You're not really the Warden of the prison though, you're its architect. Maybe an ability to click the button and come in in a staff car with your custom character (if you have one) and tour it that way, of course having Jail keys, being killed in the prison as the architect would of course be a sad game over but yeah. However the Warden being killed shouldn't be an automatic game over, as you can just hire another.

4: One-of-a-kind staff (that is, your Warden, Foreman and Chief as of writing) would carry special all-access keys, adding additional realism as well as an additional incentive to keep them safe. They should also be MUCH more expensive to hire, say by a factor of ten or so. They would be free for the first hire, providing even more incentive for said protection.


Yes, I agree administration staff should carry jail keys.
No, I don't think they should be super expensive, I like how it is now, being slightly more expensive than standard staff. Although I would appreciate the ability to hire additional foreman so I can have classes in more than one workshop.

5: A special object, the Control Center, would be available in your Warden and/or Chief's Offices and required to issue the Lockdown order. It would be a "super" version of any presumed future block control centers (the Alcatraz keys video being a recent prominent example).


I like it, although I think it should be an item that's unlocked in the "CCTV" unlock and should have to be staffed by a guard similar to how the CCTVs work. And perhaps even giving the ability to open closed doors that are in the radius of a CCTV camera. Or something, I don't know. Perhaps even just give these features to CCTV camera stations.

6: Doctors should require Offices. Their demands in this fields should be roughly on par with those of Psychologists and Accountants. I'm not sure what they would do in the offices; perhaps occasional breaks to file paperwork or some consultation option similar to the psych?


No, they're fine loitering in the medical wards. Not all doctors have offices and not all doctors need offices. Furthermore, it adds more offices which, really, is too many offices if you plan on having a large medical staff.

7A: This is much more long term, and like the roads suggestion would probably have to have some kind of grandfather clause for older players (maybe the same way the failure conditions have it), but how about requiring accomodations for the staff themselves? Parking lots (they wouldn't actually use them; you'd just need to place one space for each Doctors/Lawyers/Accountants/Psychologist and VIP spaces for the Foreman and the Chief and the best space of all for the Warden. Spaces would be outdoor "rooms" defined by certain materials using a special sort of room mechanic; the closest thing I can think of other than indoor rooms is fences. Better spaces would require additional accomodations, perhaps even a special valet staff member and/or covering, as well as wider and larger spaces.


No.
Wholly unnecessary. A pain the arse to build and expand upon for early prisons, and again, very unnecessary.

7B: Guards would need Lockers, though they'd be only $100 and the existing lockers would be renamed Armed Guard Lockers, as would Workmen and Chefs. Staff would also require their own restroom facilities, and would fulfill their own Food need better with various vending machines placed around your prison (like Theme Hospital, you could make a quick buck with them and maybe use them on your prisoners too, especially if/when the Commissary is added; imagine a totally busted machine leaking stacks of snacks to your prisoners delight; a real order concern indeed). Port-A-Potties ($100) would be available prior to your prison's first arrivals so that your Workmen could fulfill their needs without you needing to construct extensive facilities for them, and they would carry their tools with them (I hope to see staff carrying more things in future; not only should prisoners be able to steal their uniforms, but construction tools and materials (though not just ones carried by staff) and kitchen equipment should not be off the table (so to speak) either).


Let's see
No to the lockers. Once prisons get larger you're going to end up needing a fair amount of guards, especially if you're running an "iron fist" style of prison, so the lockers would take up too much room, perhaps just make a locker a requirement for the Security room but not a requirement for hiring staff/ guards.
Maybe to the needs of staff. As I said before tracking the needs of staff along with prisoners could be too much for slower computers. Perhaps just have them use stuff in the Staff Room. Even making toilets a requirement for staff rooms. But I don't think tracking staff needs (beyond tired/ not tired) should be a big thing until there's further optimization.
I don't mind making money off staff through vending machines, but again, meh. Sure why not.

Workmen don't get tired until your first prisoners arrive and so thusly, I don't think any needs should grow until prisoners arrive. While this isn't wholly "realistic" gameplay comes before realism, and this is an instance where the realism would get in the way of the gameplay.

The prisoners can already steal equipment from the various staff rooms (tools and such from storage, knives and such from the kitchens) but I do like the idea of prisoners stealing uniforms and attempting to use them to escape. Although this would be an instance where you'd also gain the ability to have guards "search" or "check" staff to make sure they're legit.
And I wouldn't mind seeing workmen carry around toolboxes although this is the only thing I can really think of since chefs carrying around knives is unsafe behavior which would cause Gordon Ramsay to scream at them and you can already see Guards and such carrying around their guns/ tasers/ body armor. And I think janitors and gardeners carry around their tools, although I don't pay much attention and I know prisoners who are cleaning do so I may just be confusing them.

P.S: Z-Levels:

Assuming these are ever implemented, I would like to suggest it be done in the manner of Dwarf Fortress, with staircases and 5x5 elevator shafts with 3x3 elevators (with double-sized, staff and VIP elevators as well, like in SimTower), as well as SimTower-esque emergency fire exits, providing means onward and upward. Layers would only be generated when the transportational object (for lack of a better term) was placed, and the player would be prompted before placing such an object if it would result in such a generation; this would greatly reduce CPU strain and generally resemble the land grant system. The most major difficulty I can see (aside from pathing) is accomodating this from a sniper/viewpoint perspective; a special algorithm may be required to accommodate multistory buildings, especially from an external viewpoint of ones of various heights).


You pointed out a major problem with this idea. Furthermore, it's unnecessary as the land grant system gives you as much room as your budget and computer will allow.

Also, it's been suggested, many many many many many many times.


And as Xander pointed out, next time post these ideas in separate threads. Posting suggestions like this makes it a pain in the arse to deal with for everyone else, (see what I had to do here) and often, otherwise good ideas could be lost in the discussions of your other ideas and really, while I may be an avid reader, I don't really enjoy reading overly long posts on forums.
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby 00face » Thu May 01, 2014 11:19 am

Xander sure sounds like a douchetroll to me and so do you guys that defended him, likely him on another account. How exactly and in what world does making individual suggestions, especially when related to a specific area, into separate topics keep things organized any better? So again, where and in what world would breaking down a group of suggestions and ideas related to one area, make sense to be deconstructed into a bunch of forum threads? Hopefully explaining that in two separate ways will fully articulate the major flaws in you threes logic.

That said christhekiller, necessary that the warden gets a Porsche car? How does necessary apply to a suggestion like that? It's not necessary your prisoners all have a bio is it? But they do. It isn't necessary for the game to have Steam Workshop is it? But it does doesn't it, hmmm?

After your long winded negative, not constructive, pretentious comments, I'm so happy that you and people like you have nothing to do with a game like this being developed, as i'm 99% if you did, this game wouldn't have mod support, let alone be anything close to original or fun. In addition, what the hell is the point of even commenting or being a part of these parts of the forums if all you are going to do is tell everyone what is wrong with their ideas all the time? It's real easy to tell someone how something isn't going to work, it takes a little more brain power to think of how it could or give a suggestion to improve a suggestion someone else has.

Praetyre I think these are great suggestions, all with a reason and logic behind them. I personally am a huge fan of my characters in games not appearing from nowhere.
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby Tarô11 » Thu May 01, 2014 11:40 am

Your post has been reported for no respect of other people. Forum rules are for everybody, xander just told you what they are and you should know them as you are supposed to read them before posting here.
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Re: [SUGGESTION] New Transportation System/Staff System

Postby Praetyre » Thu May 01, 2014 2:58 pm

@xander/christhekiller: The reason they are in one thread is because the Bus thing links the transportation and staff suggestions. I would otherwise have split them, and am happy to have them split if this is desired.

Praetyre wrote:PART I: TRANSPORTATION SUGGESTIONS

[Snip transport admin idea]



christhekiller wrote:I don't like this. Primarily because it seems unnecessary, things are delivered/ picked up when they're needed and I'd rather get everything picked up immediately than when I schedule it. Secondarily because it adds clutter to an already pretty clutter UI. Perhaps this could be late stage Beta or full release functions but until then. Nah.


I did not necessarily intend these suggestions to be Alpha; certainly, the staff needs/Z-Levels can easily wait till long after every prisoner category and feature has been added. Also, as noted, the materials shipments is primarily to account for the Realistic Mod; also, the purpose of the shipment scheduler (Realistic Mod or no) is to avoid huge pileups of garbage trucks/prisoners being shipped in/materials coming in at the same time and creating a traffic jam. The Garbage Truck seperation should also help matters; it is one of the biggest loads on the road system as of present. As such, you would still be able to get instant shipments using the scheduler; it's there for added realism and your convenience.

Obviously, none of this would be applicable before the prison's opening; there's no time-sensitive shipments of people coming in, so why bother, even leaving aside inconvenience.


christhekiller wrote:Cargo Trucks, Riot Vans, and Ambulances yes to remaining as they are now
Garbage Trucks, maybe although I think they should have a much larger capacity and perhaps even come with a garbageman or two to help and/ or soley do the garbage. I say maybe however, because Cargo Trucks are okay although I am occasionally, on my most OCD days bothers by it.


I like the Garbageman idea, though it should be free of charge (which I imagine you'd agree with anyway, just noting).

christhekiller wrote:Buses Yea I would like prisoners and staff arriving in on buses. But perhaps double the capacity to 16 as most buses are much larger than only 8 and, ya know, double seats usually.


I'm not sure how doable that is with the current mechanics; otherwise, I think that's a good suggestion and am inclined to support it.

christhekiller wrote:Staff Cars Either all staff (except maybe guards) arrive via Staff Cars, or none do. Furthermore, no to the Porsche, completely unnecessary, a staff car should be plenty fine for my wardens. Also, a capacity of 4 or 5 as most cars can seat 4 or 5, and ya know, having 4 or more cars arrive at teh same time will be too cluttered.


It's a one-time trip; furthermore, it's hardly as if these staff would be carpooling. And under my plan, you'd only ever have your Warden come in once anyway, so it's somewhat moot (barring some event that required him to leave for some reason or another).

christhekiller wrote:Furthermore, I'd say staff drive in as soon as they are hired. Not tomorrow, not after breakfast, now. And as I said, all staff (except guards) arrive via staff car, or they all arrive via bus.


That would actually probably be worse from a traffic perspective, and scarcely any better from the plop-down-a-armed-guard-to-quell-a-riot status quo; even the trip time would be minimized (as well as traffic jams) by the fact they could get out of the vehicles under current mechanics (like emergency services). It forces you to plan ahead, and it's a one time investment anyway.

christhekiller wrote:Nah. The one stretch of road is fine. More road adds unnecessary problems (one of which you pointed out).


Another way to go about it could be to have new road in empty sections; this would require modifications to my transportation mechanic but would add a hell of a lot of horizontal expansionary possibility, especially crucial if no Z-level expansion is planned.

christhekiller wrote:Not a bad suggestion, per say. But clearing for them to arrive hours in advance seems unnecessary and I'm pretty sure prisoners are randomly "built" when they're arriving, not when hours in advance. Perhaps just have an armed guard or two come off with them and escort them to the cell and then leave. A huge convoy again, would be clutter, and I need to get these prisoners off the buses quickly since they're cluttering up the road.


The thing is, though, these aren't ordinary prisoners; they aren't going to be transferred to your prison barring a special event or you (the Warden)'s explicit say so, maybe even involving the CEO himself. It's more than just cosmetic/transportational; as you pointed out they'd need an escort (and the prisoners would go wild when they did arrive) which you'd need to provide (scripting should be able to work it, in a similar manner to patrols and deployments); say, 6 Armed Guards or Private Military Contractors (an idea of mine from my other thread suggesting new prisoner types).


christhekiller wrote:Maybe... This whole thing is a big resounding, maybe. Buuuuut
Foreman hires No to the workmen, as you get them when you start and may need to hire more before you hire a Foreman. It already sort of works that you can't hire janitors or gardeners without the Foreman as you can't get them until he researches them and now you need them and you need to keep him around to train prisoners in the workshop.


I'd thought about that; my idea was to have the number of Workmen you can get before needing a Foreman (this would only be pre-opening, naturally) varying by map size. Say, you have to stick to your starting 8 on Small, you can get up to 16 on Medium and 32 on Large. The Janitor/Gardener thing would have an additional flag for the requirements, but you're right, it wouldn't be a colossal change. I'll comment on the Foreman/workshop thing below; thanks for reminding me, I knew I had forgotten something...

christhekiller wrote:Chief hires No to the guards, you'll need them before you get your Chief usually. And the big resounding maybe to the other two.


Need them for what? An additional office (even if it's of Chief-calibre) isn't that pricey, and you'd want your Chief for Deployment and Danger Level reports at the very least anyway. And you need a Chief to research Armed Guards/Dog Handlers anyway, so it's hardly a stretch to have to have him around to hire them. This stuff also provides an even bigger incentive to keep your bigwigs safe.

christhekiller wrote:Warden hires No to needing him to hire workmen (as above).


This hinges on the Foreman issue, naturally, so I'll pass from commenting again.

christhekiller wrote:Maybe to needing him to hire Chefs/ Guards as you may or may not want Chefs and Guards before you get the Warden here, although I'm leaning towards yes. And a, sure, why not, for the rest.


One compromise I could see is allowing hires before prison-opening but requiring your Warden for them afterward; that'd be a good way to split the difference on a lot of these actually, and would be realistic as presumably your Warden/Chief/Foreman are offsite planning things prior to the prison being built/opened.

christhekiller wrote:Medical Chief Nah, unless he (or she) adds some other sort of affect to the game I don't see their point. And, because of that it adds an unnecessary office.


There would be additional benefits; most likely pertaining to any planned disease system (including a mass-inspection option equivalent to Shakedown and quarantine of prisoners, entire blocks, all prisoners of a particular type/race/gang or even the whole prison itself) and medical experiments (drug trials and psych studies, for instance, some of them tying into rehab, including drug rehab). He's not just a space filler, and you wouldn't need 10 Doctors to hire him.

christhekiller wrote:Maybe, I can see this being more late-game as tracking staff needs (on top of prisoner needs) might be something that slower computers will have trouble handling at the moment, so perhaps with future handling. But as for the rest, nah. Perhaps you might want to add TVs and couches to your Wardens office to make it more like the Warden lives on site for aesthetic purposes, but I don't really think it should be anything more than an aesthetic. Although I do frequently add couches to psychologist offices for prisoner-laying-on purposes (which doesn't pan out D:).


The staff needs issue isn't really that much different from tracking tiredness, in my opinion. Granted, I'm no processing/coding expert, so maybe someone with more knowledge than I can comment on this matter. Also, even leaving needs aside, better furniture would mean better "quality" offices and might even make your staff get tired slower. I wish there was an incentive to keep your top staff working after the tech tree is unlocked; some kind of site-wide efficiency bonus for their respective underlings, with the Warden's special personal bonus being effected too. Have it gradually lower when they aren't working, and recharge when they are, with enough work bringing maximum charge to it.

christhekiller wrote:Maybe. You're not really the Warden of the prison though, you're its architect. Maybe an ability to click the button and come in in a staff car with your custom character (if you have one) and tour it that way, of course having Jail keys, being killed in the prison as the architect would of course be a sad game over but yeah. However the Warden being killed shouldn't be an automatic game over, as you can just hire another.


This reminds me of a brief speculation I read on who the PC is in Evil Genius (another good source of potential inspiration, if buggy, unfinished, unpolished and 3D); the player is clearly identified with the Genius right down to special alerts when they are under attack and direct control, yet seems somewhat seperate in mechanics. Since the game isn't 1:1 timescale, I see the architect functions as abstractions; granted, bits of the campaign seem to have the Warden as a seperate character and perhaps various missions have different (NPC) Wardens as your sort of boss for the mission. Architects don't run the prison day to day though. Perhaps you are an architect in the campaign and the Warden in the sandbox game? Just a thought.

Also, what would be the point of such a tour? You'd have no real authority to order around staff (an interesting undocumented strategy with Warden-Control-Mode) and would be basically a prisoner with no schedule, no hostility and all-access. It'd have neither the fun of being head honcho or being the underdog.

christhekiller wrote:Yes, I agree administration staff should carry jail keys.
No, I don't think they should be super expensive, I like how it is now, being slightly more expensive than standard staff. Although I would appreciate the ability to hire additional foreman so I can have classes in more than one workshop.


Well, it wasn't jail keys, it was a special all-access card (this would be particularily useful if (perhaps with late-game Chief research) you could physically segregate your prison with keycard systems, to add to what I presume to be future segregation options (though this is not just for cell blocks or prisoners/prisoner areas). The expense is only for the one-of-a-kind staff, and is (excepting the Chief), only applicable if your first one gets killed. This provides a powerful incentive (along with hostage mechanics and secrets they carry; say, a prisoner learning the layout or guard/workman schedule/locations through taking said secrets). On the Foreman issue: I agree and think a subordinate officer (with office) should be around for such things, or perhaps simply a hired professional with different graphics from a teacher for such purposes. They'd still need the Foreman to run such programs, but he wouldn't directly teach himself.

christhekiller wrote:[Snip Control Center idea]

I like it, although I think it should be an item that's unlocked in the "CCTV" unlock and should have to be staffed by a guard similar to how the CCTVs work. And perhaps even giving the ability to open closed doors that are in the radius of a CCTV camera. Or something, I don't know. Perhaps even just give these features to CCTV camera stations.


It's not the same thing as CCTV, though, and CCTV is already a pretty hefty upgrade. I see this as more mid-late tier. I guess you could order CCTV-viewable doors open, but what exactly would be the point? You could just order them open and wait for a guard to perma-unlock them, unless you want to figure it into the door-control system (which is fine by me).

christhekiller wrote:No, they're fine loitering in the medical wards. Not all doctors have offices and not all doctors need offices. Furthermore, it adds more offices which, really, is too many offices if you plan on having a large medical staff.


Admittedly, the mechanics are buggy and there's huge room for expansion in the medical department, but I only have 2 Doctors, and that's only because I like to have one around to heal the other should he get injured and for shift-realism reasons. I don't really think offices are that big an investment; granted, the mod I've got reduces them to 3x3, but even so.

christhekiller wrote:No.
Wholly unnecessary. A pain the arse to build and expand upon for early prisons, and again, very unnecessary.


Beyond the road connection (something I only just thought of, and it'd only need to be wide enough to hypothetically-let-in such cars, what's the exact difficulty? It wouldn't even be that expensive, all things considered, and it's not as if a 3x5 car is an unmanagable space hog.

christhekiller wrote:Let's see
No to the lockers. Once prisons get larger you're going to end up needing a fair amount of guards, especially if you're running an "iron fist" style of prison, so the lockers would take up too much room, perhaps just make a locker a requirement for the Security room but not a requirement for hiring staff/ guards.


Lockers are 1x1; you can easily pack 60+ of them comfortably on even the smallest of maps. They're less of a space hog than canteen tables, just for starters, and this encourages planning; avoids guard-spam and provides realism with a taste of strategy to boot.


christhekiller wrote:Maybe to the needs of staff. As I said before tracking the needs of staff along with prisoners could be too much for slower computers. Perhaps just have them use stuff in the Staff Room. Even making toilets a requirement for staff rooms. But I don't think tracking staff needs (beyond tired/ not tired) should be a big thing until there's further optimization.
I don't mind making money off staff through vending machines, but again, meh. Sure why not.


As noted, this isn't Alpha stuff; and the way I see it working now is like the Bathroom from Theme Hospital; you place 3x1 stalls and 1x2 sinks and drying machines; have at least one in your room and hey presto, no need for walls and doors making up 3x3 spaces. Plus, it provides potential opportunities for prisoner plotting, including with staff themselves (drug deals, bribery, the works).

christhekiller wrote:Workmen don't get tired until your first prisoners arrive and so thusly, I don't think any needs should grow until prisoners arrive. While this isn't wholly "realistic" gameplay comes before realism, and this is an instance where the realism would get in the way of the gameplay.


I'm talking at most 3x3 (if not 1x1) $100 Port-A-Potty Stalls; though I'd forgotten about the tiredness thing. Still, you can imagine your Workmen having off hours due to time not being 1:1; even construction workers eat and go to the bathroom on the job (your staff would bring their own lunches of cosmetic variation out autonomously, with no shipping needed due to said lack of 1:1 scale).

christhekiller wrote:The prisoners can already steal equipment from the various staff rooms (tools and such from storage, knives and such from the kitchens) but I do like the idea of prisoners stealing uniforms and attempting to use them to escape. Although this would be an instance where you'd also gain the ability to have guards "search" or "check" staff to make sure they're legit.


Cool idea on the checking; also, there should be ways to keep your equipment better locked up that provide incentives for your staff to take it from the staff directly. Think a 3x1 kitchen cupboard holding enough equipment for 10 chefs, for example. Also, the tracking would be a potential CPU issue, though I don't know how it would compare with the needs; there's less of an obvious AI factor.

christhekiller wrote:And I wouldn't mind seeing workmen carry around toolboxes although this is the only thing I can really think of since chefs carrying around knives is unsafe behavior which would cause Gordon Ramsay to scream at them and you can already see Guards and such carrying around their guns/ tasers/ body armor. And I think janitors and gardeners carry around their tools, although I don't pay much attention and I know prisoners who are cleaning do so I may just be confusing them.


They also seem to use drills, judging by the sound effects. Could even have them put down the boxes and bring out the drills with mechanics akin to that of dog leads, with plenty of potential theft of power packs, other tools (hammers being a particularily obvious example) and even the drill itself. Think of what that baby could do for tunnelers... incidentally, is a DF-like sound system planned at any point? An explosion at your prison isn't something that would go unnoticed; I'm Fight Club skittish around letting my prisoners have bleach, let alone soap (other jokes aside).

christhekiller wrote:You pointed out a major problem with this idea. Furthermore, it's unnecessary as the land grant system gives you as much room as your budget and computer will allow.

Also, it's been suggested, many many many many many many times.


There are potential strategic benefits to Z-Levels as far as preventing escape goes, and I'm aware it's been suggested; I'm just saying that IF it were to be implemented, this is what I'd like to see it done. This is late-Beta stuff, at minimum.

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