Taser feedback

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xander
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby xander » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:02 am

JSD wrote:I personally love the games where you as a player has total freedom in what you do, and how you do it.

No such game exists.

JSD wrote:Games without or with a whole different sets of end game, story or outcome.

Nerfing the tasers won't change that.

JSD wrote:I personally don't care about the "obstacles" as much. Give me a blank field, some rooms I can build, and I will see where I end.

Then what you want is a box of LEGO or an Erector set. You want a toy, not a game (I can understand the confusion: there is some overlap, in that some games are toys and some toys are games, but the two sets do not overlap entirely).

JSD wrote:So at this taser case, I don't even see the same thing you see about overpowered and or game breaking.

We can agree to disagree on this one. I think that the taser and taser rollout are overpowered. Specifically, I think that tasers are a powerful powerup that come without penalty (aside from a one-time monetary penalty, which becomes insignificant over time). Other things in the game have tradeoffs: armed guards increase suppression; workshops provide contraband; all staff have continuing wages that must be paid. What is the downside of equipping all of your staff with tasers? Without a downside, they are overpowered (personally, I think that they are overpowered to the point of being game breaking, but that is a matter of degree, not kind).


JSD wrote:For me it's just a fun tool/option to play with. It's just a game.

No one is suggesting that the tool/option of having tasers should be removed from the game; only that some tradeoff should be introduced. No one wants to remove the feature---we just want to see it balanced a little.

JSD wrote:And that answers your question; Why add the feature?. Because it's fun. Because it's a game. Because.. why not?

This doesn't answer any question that I have asked, nor does is address any issue that I have raised.

JSD wrote:You have to agree that the style of the game on his own makes it clear it's just a game. If they really wanted to give you the whole serious prison management kind of type, they wouldn't have made this goofy, cartoonish, humorisch kind of game..

I fail to see how this is relevant.

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Re: Taser feedback

Postby JSD » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:04 am

Reading between the lines might be difficult for some people. Same goes for people who sometimes have to admit they are not right all the time. May be new for you though. You might be here for so long you consider yourself a true Forum hero or something, but you are kinda full of shit. Your blaming/making a big deal about a taser thing, (aside all the other things you whine about) while you are a user who is suppose to know how this shit works. You keep pointing out the fact that nobody said that the option should be removed. Never said that. You said it. Started it. You just want to be looked at as somebody that has a good point. (Tasers are suddenly to overpowered/game breaking, but you agree that balancing is a Beta thing? Then what the FUCK you're crying about?) But to be honest, we both know this is a Alpha, and this taser thing might be ripped of next month. You just wanna make your point because your arrogant and thinks you are right and concider yourself as a true hero. Me on the other hand, flips you the finger, say; fuck you, and have a nice evening! Your to arrogant, selfish and not even worth the trouble to have a discussion with. I always read between the lines about the comments about Xander. But you made if more then clear. Your not even worth the trouble to discussing with in the first place.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby 111none » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:49 am

JSD wrote:Reading between the lines might be difficult for some people. Same goes for people who sometimes have to admit they are not right all the time. May be new for you though. You might be here for so long you consider yourself a true Forum hero or something, but you are kinda full of shit. Your blaming/making a big deal about a taser thing, (aside all the other things you whine about) while you are a user who is suppose to know how this shit works. You keep pointing out the fact that nobody said that the option should be removed. Never said that. You said it. Started it. You just want to be looked at as somebody that has a good point. (Tasers are suddenly to overpowered/game breaking, but you agree that balancing is a Beta thing? Then what the FUCK you're crying about?) But to be honest, we both know this is a Alpha, and this taser thing might be ripped of next month. You just wanna make your point because your arrogant and thinks you are right and concider yourself as a true hero. Me on the other hand, flips you the finger, say; fuck you, and have a nice evening! Your to arrogant, selfish and not even worth the trouble to have a discussion with. I always read between the lines about the comments about Xander. But you made if more then clear. Your not even worth the trouble to discussing with in the first place.


There is no need to be arguing, can we all solve this conflict something rather than needless flaming? I have not seen xander post anything to provoke you in anyway.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby JSD » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:00 am

Xander pissing me off. He's playing the almighty God act..
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby 111none » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:03 am

He is? It seems like he is just trying voice his opinion.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby nini » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:30 am

When someone reads between the lines, they might find something that was never there. Happens surprisingly frequently to xander though, always figure he's got some ulterior motive to devalue opinion or something due to a perception of being a "forum hero" to some.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby thekillergreece » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:34 am

Looks like it is impossible to change tazer damage points.

And impossible to change Body armour penalty points hmmm...
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby blacksythe » Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:31 am

I have to agree on the fact that at the moment tasers are a little OP, maybe not if only armed guards have them, but having every guard in your prison have one seems OP.

First and foremost though this game is a prison simulator, tasers do exist in prison and they do exist in everyday life, American police carry them, even some British police now carry them as standard equipment and in addition I am sure, many other countries in the world use them, because they are exactly as they should be an effective way of dealing with violent people being pursued by law enforcement.

Excepts taken from Wikipedia that could be used to balance the game and bring realism somewhat.

The air cartridge contains a pair of electrodes and propellant for a single shot and is replaced after each use.

Put simply to reload the taser guards would need to carry multiple cartridges so making this a requirement to carry these cartridges would force them to return to pick up new ammo, allow guards to say carry 2 of these cartridges but force them to stop for say 5 game minutes to reload means in a large fight 1 shot and the other prisoners are upon them forcing them to resort to fists. having new ammo costing say $50 in game per cartridge would make sense.

In addition forcing guards to fill out paper work after shooting a prisoner with a taser is a great way to balance by taking guards out of the prison to fill out paperwork, imagine the problems this would cause after a major riot and would need a bit more control of when they can fill out paperwork or how many can fill out paper work to prevent too many being taken out of the prison at once

Tasers, like other electric devices, have been found to ignite flammable materials.

Id like to see this integrated however small a chance

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Other things that can be done for realism.

Tasers do not knock people out so replacing this in game to "temporarily incapacitated" would mean if the guard did not get the cuffs on in time the prisoner can jump up even more angry.

Regular Guards require a training course before being allowed to use a taser
Armed guards do not require a training course as it makes no sense handing them a shotgun but not a taser.

Micromanagement
Great idea but the randomness of where the guards patrol make this almost impossible, instead giving patrol points there own taser symbol or being able to allocate taser zones would make sense for example before a guard joins a patrol point he heads to the armory to pick up a taser, once he has finished his patrol he returns the taser to the armory

Well if you did read the entire post and every other post kudos to you. if not go back and read them.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby 111none » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:53 am

You know the paperwork part? I think we can finally find a use for a lawyer!
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby thekillergreece » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:05 pm

111none wrote:You know the paperwork part? I think we can finally find a use for a lawyer!


Which paperwork part? I already made lawyers useful in my mod :P
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby Bertie » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:19 pm

xander wrote:May I suggest that Tazers have a small chance of killing or severely injuring a prisoner? This could be tied to an underlying hidden condition (say a heart condition, or overall poor health), or could just be a random effect of using a Tazer.


The chance of death would be very small.

From a quick Google in the UK there have been 7 taser deaths in the last 10 years (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 02251.html). In the 3 years from Jan 2009 to Dec 2011 there were approximately 3,500 reported uses of tasers (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24029706), which gives a 'risk of death' percentage of 0.2%. This further reduces when you account for the fact that I've compared a 10 year death rate with only 3 years of taser usage. I can't imagine it would be worth the time of the developer to put something in that's got less than 1 in a 500 chance of happening.

Even if you look at the USA figures only 1 in 333 of people suffered serious injury, again that's worse case as only a proportion of those would have been deaths (https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/232215.pdf). If you're having that many instances of tasering in your prison then you probably need to be looking at security measures, as that's a lot of rioting :)
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby McLumberjack » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:08 pm

blacksythe wrote:Other things that can be done for realism.

Tasers do not knock people out so replacing this in game to "temporarily incapacitated" would mean if the guard did not get the cuffs on in time the prisoner can jump up even more angry..


I do like this idea, tasers making people unconscious is pure movie logic, which Prison Architect is admittedly no stranger to, but it's one area where a nod to realism could make the game more interesting.

Under an incapacitating model rather than a KO model a taser would be a delay tactic rather than an instant victory for the guard. One rioting prisoner can be held in place while other nearby guards gain ground giving you a better chance of out-numbering the inmate and getting them subdued without serious injury.

A slight rebuild of the combat model would be needed here, where higher numbers increase the chance of a victory without injury. Guards just pile on and subdue an inmate, rather than beat them half to death. The same could be true of multiple violent inmates against one guard. Again the taser presents a bonus here: a guard can incapacitate one inmate temporarily, giving them a better chance of controlling the situation against multiple rioting inmates.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby ouyin2000 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 7:51 pm

Has anyone thought that using a tazer in the showers is a potentially very bad idea?
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby thekillergreece » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:03 pm

ouyin2000 wrote:Has anyone thought that using a tazer in the showers is a potentially very bad idea?


The pretty odd thing was, there were 35 high security prisoners in a shower, someone went crazy and started to fight, a guard came and tazed him. The other prisoners did do nothing. Unknown if behavior bug or not angry at all on tazers.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby smallfry » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:06 pm

I don't think they are game breaking, but they are a bit overpowered. There is a delay for it to recharge, so it's not as if a single guard can deal with a riot in the shower block, but they do deal with one-on-one incidents rather too quickly, and guards seem to resort to taser much quickly than police/guards would in reality.

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