Taser feedback

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McLumberjack
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Taser feedback

Postby McLumberjack » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:46 pm

Hey, just saw on the latest video (alpha 18) Chris asking for some feedback on the way Tasers work, haven't seen a thread so I thought I'd start one.

I think the idea of guards going back to the armoury to reload has merit. At the moment there's no reason to have armouries in dangerous places inside the prison where they'll create a challenge in a riot. Mine is, currently, outside the main prison behind all sorts of secure areas. A prisoner could escape more easily than they could raid an armoury.

If guards don't have to go there regularly then there's no downside to doing this, creating a resource that needs meeting inside the prison creates one, and something like ammo seems an obvious choice. Architects now have to design around security and efficiency of their armed patrols.

Possible downside: a guard fires a taser and then immediately pisses off to the armoury leaving his buddies in the lurch. So it'd be an idea for the them to only go at certain points when they have a quiet moment rather than just have it in the job queue.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:54 pm

I always leave 2-4 armed guards to guard armoury. What I dont like is, when you research tazer rollout, EVERY security a.i will go and take weapons RATHER THAN ordering them to do so. I prefer ordering them to do so OVER THAN they automatically go and take tazers. I dont like it, but it also doesnt piss me off. I just dont like, its too OP for them. Imagine snipers,sniper towers and armed riot guards...Ah..


Anyway, Still, ammo system is not installed. We should see A.I reloading with real ammo rather than their weapons auto ghost reload.
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xander
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby xander » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:02 pm

More feedback: on the one hand, Tazers are currently quite powerful, as they are guaranteed to put a prisoner out instantly. They aren't super effective during a riot, but for small conflicts, they are game breaking. May I suggest that Tazers have a small chance of killing or severely injuring a prisoner? This could be tied to an underlying hidden condition (say a heart condition, or overall poor health), or could just be a random effect of using a Tazer.

xander
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby thekillergreece » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:05 pm

xander wrote:More feedback: on the one hand, Tazers are currently quite powerful, as they are guaranteed to put a prisoner out instantly. They aren't super effective during a riot, but for small conflicts, they are game breaking. May I suggest that Tazers have a small chance of killing or severely injuring a prisoner? This could be tied to an underlying hidden condition (say a heart condition, or overall poor health), or could just be a random effect of using a Tazer.

xander


For killing, guard should stay and stand for long time while electro shocking the prisoner, slowly killing him.

Maybe old men could be the victim of getting heart attack when getting tazed?
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby nini » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:59 pm

Tasers are about as game breaking as a Weapons Free armed guard except the prisoner lives.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:18 pm

I thought the same things. I'd prefer if guards had to return to the armory to swap their tazer for one that's sitting on the charger and not automatically charging on their belt somehow. I think for now this system is fine, but what we eventually need is the ability to send certain guards to the armory for certain equipment. I'm fine if they always strive to have a baton (and some other default gear) so that the player doesn't have to micromanage weapons, but I'd like the option to do so. This also allows for a limited rollout if you're running low on funds.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby copy paper » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:24 pm

McLumberjack wrote:I think the idea of guards going back to the armoury to reload has merit. At the moment there's no reason to have armouries in dangerous places inside the prison where they'll create a challenge in a riot. Mine is, currently, outside the main prison behind all sorts of secure areas. A prisoner could escape more easily than they could raid an armoury.


I feel like this is a really good point. Why not just simulate ammo/cartridges? After every x shots with a shotgun, they have to return for ammo, after every shot with a taser they need to pick up a new cartridge. etc? This could also limit the insanity of a prisoner getting a shotgun, because they'd only have so much ammo for it.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby Cheesy_Wotsit » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:45 pm

Game breaking, yeah kinda. I used the Tazer roll out option and got rid of all my armed guards. I have around 50 guards in a prison of 200 or so inmates. My regime is set up in such a way that every morning the prisons danger level seems to reach at least 4 or 5 knotches, before free time kicks in followed by meals by which time it usual falls back to zero. In the past I had set up patrols so that if trouble kicked off their was a high chance of having at least two guards in response range so any troublesome prisoners got over powered quickly.

The Guards would get injured the prisoner would get injured and the resolution would take a good few moments so it wasn't prefect but it did the job, their was still the risk of collateral damage the risk of a prisoner getting killed or worse the prisoner over powering the guards and going on a rampage with whatever weapons and equipment they could grab. It wasn't perfect but it did the job for the most part. Now any troublesome prisoners get over powered by a single guard in a matter of seconds with no risk or injury to either party involved, any damage or issue occurring in whatever time the prisoner has prior to being noticed by a guard.

My setup means that I can have 50 odd guards with 200 prisoners and still make money to the tune of $9000 per day without needing to have the prisoners work.

To sum up, the tazer guards are to quick to resolve issues, their is next to no risk in them being used, they are expensive enough to first deploy but to cheap to maintain in the long term and they seem to have very litte effect if any on prisoner attitude, e.g like the suppression effect armed guards have.

The reloading idea seems good, but perhaps instead of them having to reload at an armoury maybe they could reload at a check in point placed at the entrance to a cell block. The location holds nothing other than an ammunition, or could double up as a CCTV station or checkpoint and the entrance to the location will remain closed while prisoners are causing trouble, this would force guards to switch to batons and stop them from tazer, run to reload spot, reload, run back in tazer again.

At the very least they need to be rebalanced, or perhaps the feature removed totally and left only in the hands of armed guards, at least then you have a limit as well as the supression effect of the armed guard. Maybe the choice between armed guards with tazer or shotgun, those with shotgun have a supression effect those with tazer don't, At least that way the armed guard limit still effects how many can be hired?
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby CoronelNiel » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:01 pm

There should probably be an option to increase the number of guards with each equipment level, i.e. like number of citizens doing a job in Banished (just off the top of my head)

Idea seems cool, even if its "overpowered" the game should probably be balanced around the idea of them having tasers, by making riots more deadly or whatnot.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby JSD » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:13 pm

My opinion; A taser is not game breaking. In the end it's a choice. You either use them, or you don't. I agree that there should be a change of killing prisoners with a bad heart or something. The reloading thingy in armory or the Ammo pick-ups that suggested, those are game breaking, cause you have a huge (useless) moving traffic all over the map just for reloading a taser or getting a bullet. The system as it is, is kinda good. Only thing I would change is that not every guard and or dog handler gets a taser. Let the player decide if he want a full taser team, or maybe a couple on critical points.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby xander » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:32 pm

JSD wrote:The reloading thingy in armory or the Ammo pick-ups that suggested, those are game breaking, cause you have a huge (useless) moving traffic all over the map just for reloading a taser or getting a bullet.

Or you design a prison with lots of amouries to act as ammo depots. Higher risk, but better access in case of a riot.

And taser rollouts are pretty game-breaking right now. They don't do much in case of a riot, but they are excellent for dealing with the minor, day-to-day violence, completely removing that challenge from the game. They break the challenge of the game.

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Re: Taser feedback

Postby balfro » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:37 pm

Tasers. They are tools. That are designed to end situations without harming either the officer or the suspect. Yes they are very effective against day to day violence. But that´s what they are for. If it´s to much, then make a education program for guards. Like: They need to go to a class to get a taser. Just like in real life. Also we can make it cost per day. Like cleaning maintaining them and buying ammo for them.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby JSD » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:12 pm

xander wrote:Or you design a prison with lots of amouries to act as ammo depots. Higher risk, but better access in case of a riot.

And taser rollouts are pretty game-breaking right now. They don't do much in case of a riot, but they are excellent for dealing with the minor, day-to-day violence, completely removing that challenge from the game. They break the challenge of the game.

xander


That's why there are there. They are made for day-to-day violence situates. In a full blown riot like the one in Kiev, you need more brutal force. I understand your point. It might be considered cheating/taking out the challenge. On the other hand; Who are we to decide how a random player runs his or her prison? Like I said, basically it's a option. If you believe it takes the challenge out off the game, then don't use the option. But that doesn't mean that it's a bad option. I like the fact that I have the option to use that kind of force if I want it. It's not game breaking cause you as a player have to decide if you want it or not. (I only believe you should have the choice who of your guard get it.) If you only look at the challenge part of it, then dogs and or armed guard are taking a lot of challenge out of the game too. From all the prisons I have made -a lot- I only used dogs in two prisons. Armed guards ones. It's a option, not something they trow at you and scream; you HAVE to use it.
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Re: Taser feedback

Postby xander » Fri Feb 28, 2014 10:37 pm

Wow... this has nothing to do with a player's ability to manage their prison as they see fit. It is about making the game a game. One characterization of a game that I really like is that it is a set of rules designed to make a very simple task difficult. For instance, the ultimate goal of golf is to get a little ball into a hole in the ground. Golf becomes a game because we don't just let someone pick up the ball an put it into the hole---we require that they put the ball on the ground a long way away, then hit it with a stick. We put obstacles in the way to make it harder to use the stick to hit the ball into a hole. We count the number of times a player hits the ball, and award a score based on this number. Making the hole bigger or putting the tee closer to the hole would break the game.

In a similar fashion, tasers, as they are now, remove most of the challenge from the game, at least in terms of dealing with day-to-day violence. Tasers are extremely effective and there is no real downside to using them after the initial investment. I don't think that anyone is seriously suggesting that they be removed from the game entirely, but rather that how they work be modified, in order to keep them from completely removing the challenge from the game. The suggestion that people simply not use tasers is a cop-out, and doesn't actually help anything. Why include a feature in a game if you are going to suggest that a sizable number of players completely ignore that feature? It doesn't make sense. The right answer is to try to find a way to make the feature work without breaking the game.

Of course, this may be a beta issue---tasers don't need to be perfectly balanced now, since we don't know how they will interact with other features in the future---but some balancing could be done now, and it makes a lot of sense to discuss how we might do that in the present.

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Re: Taser feedback

Postby JSD » Fri Feb 28, 2014 11:38 pm

I that case we have a totally different point on game-play. I personally love the games where you as a player has total freedom in what you do, and how you do it. Games without or with a whole different sets of end game, story or outcome. I personally don't care about the "obstacles" as much. Give me a blank field, some rooms I can build, and I will see where I end. So at this taser case, I don't even see the same thing you see about overpowered and or game breaking. For me it's just a fun tool/option to play with. It's just a game. In the end I treat games always the same. As games. Fun to play, but there is a real live to get back too. Therefor, I don't care that much about those little things. And that answers your question; Why add the feature?. Because it's fun. Because it's a game. Because.. why not? You have to agree that the style of the game on his own makes it clear it's just a game. If they really wanted to give you the whole serious prison management kind of type, they wouldn't have made this goofy, cartoonish, humorisch kind of game..

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