Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscious

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muahaa_the_french
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Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscious

Postby muahaa_the_french » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:03 pm

If they drop their shotty, not only do they not pick it back up, there doesn't appear to be any way for them to get another from the armory.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby thekillergreece » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:58 pm

muahaa_the_french wrote:If they drop their shotty, not only do they not pick it back up, there doesn't appear to be any way for them to get another from the armory.


I dont think this is bug, it is just armed guards are not fully programmed for that. There are more unprogrammed system for the armed guard such as "automatically go to armoury" as well..
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby BetaSpark » Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:28 pm

As said above, this is not a bug and they've not been programmed to do so at the moment, hopefully you'll notice some changes in the behavior shortly when the next release is pushed out. Until then, just fire them and then re-hire.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby knoest26 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:49 pm

I just noticed something odd;

Wouldn't you think that an armed guard with all it's armor would be incredibly tough?

Offcourse not, the armed guard only has 15hp while even the normals guards have 20hp. Seems like either an intended feature to make armed guards weaker or a bug but it fucks with logic either way
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby thekillergreece » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:14 pm

knoest26 wrote:I just noticed something odd;

Wouldn't you think that an armed guard with all it's armor would be incredibly tough?

Offcourse not, the armed guard only has 15hp while even the normals guards have 20hp. Seems like either an intended feature to make armed guards weaker or a bug but it fucks with logic either way


Yep, it is incredible unfair for Dog Handlers and Armed guards to have 15HP. Guards unfairly have 20HP which supposed to have 15 or low. Dog Handlers and Armed guards supposed to have 30HP. I dont understand why Chris doesnt add some logic..
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby knoest26 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 5:04 pm

I guess to balance the game more but it indeed doesn't make sense
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby thekillergreece » Wed Feb 05, 2014 6:19 pm

knoest26 wrote:I guess to balance the game more but it indeed doesn't make sense


Prisoners have the ability to kill security forces and staff.

Security forces have little to no ability to kill prisoners.

Thats absolutely no balance.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby snarst » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:11 am

thekillergreece wrote:
knoest26 wrote:I guess to balance the game more but it indeed doesn't make sense


Prisoners have the ability to kill security forces and staff.

Security forces have little to no ability to kill prisoners.

Thats absolutely no balance.


I kinda don't like how riots are always full on blood shed. How often are real life prison riots a take no prisoner scenario?
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby killerx243 » Fri Feb 07, 2014 3:47 am

When it is a prison full of people who just like the feeling of blood?
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby Scorpy_CFS » Sat Feb 08, 2014 2:26 pm

Yes I feel that armed guards are pointless in their current form in general.
There is little they add to the game other than massive financial deficits when selling your prison. The suppression effect is cool but ultimately unnecessary. If you can afford them, more likely than not your prison is at a point where you're managing the population without need to suppress. Firstly, I think it is paramount that the dog handler and armed guard are given a baton rather than ever needing to resort to fists. Secondly, stun weapons should have been put in before lethal weapons, or else a method of reducing the financial fallout of dead inmates.

Having said all of that, please don't mistake my points for me misunderstanding the developmental nature of alpha nor being unappreciative of the incredible work that has gone into this game. The armed guard system appears to be the beginning of a much deeper implementation and thus I recognise the system will be more fully fleshed out in time.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:57 pm

thekillergreece wrote:
muahaa_the_french wrote:If they drop their shotty, not only do they not pick it back up, there doesn't appear to be any way for them to get another from the armory.


I dont think this is bug, it is just armed guards are not fully programmed for that. There are more unprogrammed system for the armed guard such as "automatically go to armoury" as well..

Armed guards do report to the armory when they become tired, much like the dogs and handlers return to the kennel. Sounds like the re-arming logic just isn't there yet. Even regular guards magically get their baton back from out of thin air. One can make the assumption that they picked it off the floor, but none of that is actually seen.

knoest26 wrote:Wouldn't you think that an armed guard with all it's armor would be incredibly tough?

Offcourse not, the armed guard only has 15hp while even the normals guards have 20hp. Seems like either an intended feature to make armed guards weaker or a bug but it fucks with logic either way

I think all characters in the game should have more HP. All the objects for that matter too. This would make fights and destruction acts last longer.

snarst wrote:I kinda don't like how riots are always full on blood shed. How often are real life prison riots a take no prisoner scenario?

I agree. Have a look at this.

Scorpy_CFS wrote:The suppression effect is cool but ultimately unnecessary. If you can afford them, more likely than not your prison is at a point where you're managing the population without need to suppress.

Completely agree, and I had the same conclusion. In the very early game your thermometer can quickly get out of control when you essentially double your prisoner count and half of them have maxed out needs coming off the bus. Pre-Alpha 17 my only workaround was usually to change the regime to be predominately "free time" in an effort to give those newly arrived prisoners the chance to work their needs down. This works, but is further damaging to your early game finances with an empty workshop. Armed guards offer another solution: a couple passes up and down the workshop (when the majority of the prisoners are in the workshop), will bring out the necessary suppression. Trouble is, as you point out, that they're too expensive to research and hire. This is assuming no grant mods or fund cheating.

Scorpy_CFS wrote:Firstly, I think it is paramount that the dog handler and armed guard are given a baton rather than ever needing to resort to fists.

This only makes sense, I'd like to think this is coming. No guard-type staff should have fists as their first responding weapon.

Scorpy_CFS wrote:Secondly, stun weapons should have been put in before lethal weapons, or else a method of reducing the financial fallout of dead inmates.

Yes, I tend to agree. I thought armed guards would come later with watch towers, and would be more sniper focused, and not shotgun patrolling among the prisoners. It bothers me now when a large group of prisoners passes an armed guard. In reality, it would be very easy for 5-10 people to jump him, steal the shotgun, and do some serious damage to property or life. Hence, in most prisons I know, prisoners do not come into potential direct contact with firearms. There's either a physical barrier between them, or great distance such as watch tower with ranged weapons.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby cecilman_69 » Sat May 17, 2014 8:15 pm

_alphaBeta_ wrote:Completely agree, and I had the same conclusion. In the very early game your thermometer can quickly get out of control when you essentially double your prisoner count and half of them have maxed out needs coming off the bus. Pre-Alpha 17 my only workaround was usually to change the regime to be predominately "free time" in an effort to give those newly arrived prisoners the chance to work their needs down. This works, but is further damaging to your early game finances with an empty workshop. Armed guards offer another solution: a couple passes up and down the workshop (when the majority of the prisoners are in the workshop), will bring out the necessary suppression. Trouble is, as you point out, that they're too expensive to research and hire. This is assuming no grant mods or fund cheating.


A simple fix I found to this is to remove shower time, wake my prisoners up at 7am and follow with 4 hours of free time, 3 hours of work 2 hours of eat 3 hours of work 2 hours of eat and then 1 hour of free time before sending them back to sleep. This gives new prisoners on any given day 3 hours to sort out any urgent needs before they integrate into the prison life. I never see more than 3! when I get a particularly large delivery of prisoners. One of my best prisons holds around 500 prisoners at any time, as many come in as go out and I can leave the game to play itself by then.

_alphaBeta_ wrote:Yes, I tend to agree. I thought armed guards would come later with watch towers, and would be more sniper focused, and not shotgun patrolling among the prisoners. It bothers me now when a large group of prisoners passes an armed guard. In reality, it would be very easy for 5-10 people to jump him, steal the shotgun, and do some serious damage to property or life. Hence, in most prisons I know, prisoners do not come into potential direct contact with firearms. There's either a physical barrier between them, or great distance such as watch tower with ranged weapons.


I agree with the idea that watchtowers and snipers would be more effective than shot-gun toting patrol officers, I also don't like that they cause suppression which stops prisoners being interested in taking on reform programs. Personally I would like to see sniper towers armed with sedatives, even though this doesn't happen in reality but it would stop prisoners who try to escape just being shot to death, that or a shoot to wound vs. shoot to kill toggle.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Mon May 26, 2014 2:15 am

cecilman_69 wrote:Personally I would like to see sniper towers armed with sedatives, even though this doesn't happen in reality but it would stop prisoners who try to escape just being shot to death, that or a shoot to wound vs. shoot to kill toggle.

I think a lot of these types of issues will be worked out once prisoners are able to surrender. Chris expressed a desire to add this in on the Alpha-20 video. If a prisoner is running for the outer fence, they'll need to make a life-and-death decision if they have a spotlight on them and they're being bracketed by a couple of warning shots from a nearby watch tower with a loudspeaker ordering them to stop and comply.
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Re: Bug - Armed Guards useless after being knocked unconscio

Postby WarpedPerspectiv » Thu May 29, 2014 2:07 am

thekillergreece wrote:
knoest26 wrote:I guess to balance the game more but it indeed doesn't make sense


Prisoners have the ability to kill security forces and staff.

Security forces have little to no ability to kill prisoners.

Thats absolutely no balance.


Well to be fair, the guards aren't supposed to kill the prisoners to begin with. And maybe the reason for lower health for armed guards is to make it more fair if prisoners rush them?

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