Grumpy morning prisoners

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BugPowderDust
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Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby BugPowderDust » Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:42 am

Although my prison is mostly stable now (80 prisoners), I always find morning showers are a flashpoint.

I have gotten into the habit of making a single large shower area for a cell block rather then, say, two smaller ones- this is so I can station a guard there and it's easy for him to keep an eye on the one area. So far, this has worked fine, the danger-o-meter reaches two chevrons >> and then recedes with no issues. I also added a couple of toilets so those who didn't want to shower, but did need bladder/bowel release can tend it.

So my question for those who know:

1. Does me stationing the guard actually have any effect, or am I just getting lucky with the placebo guard
2. Do larger single shower areas cause more issues as there's more prisoners in the one area?

Cheers.
Last edited by BugPowderDust on Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RGeezy911
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby RGeezy911 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 11:17 am

My method, which has worked for my 150+ population prisons, is to build a shower for each cell block. Then in the regime, I place a one hour shower block right after my prisoners wake in the morning. After showers, they go eat and my danger level is sated quickly. I normally don't go above two exclamations in the danger thermometer.

I believe guards being in the room / patrolling within the room will suppress your prisoners from misconducting, but this won't work for extremely unsatisfied prisoners or prisoners with dangerous traits. This is my assumption though.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby BugPowderDust » Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:02 pm

Thanks- looks like it does help then as I have the same behaviours as you.

I used to do:

Sleep
Free Time
Shower
Eat

...but this was a nightmare. When I tweaked to

Sleep
Shower
Eat
Free Time

..it really helped, and now I station guards it's all (mainly) calm.
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HeroFV
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby HeroFV » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:49 pm

I'm inclined to believe that larger shower (with more prisoners) does cause more "friction". I have about 200+ prisoners and the building is split in 2. One shower on each side. Each serving 100+ prisoners. Part of my problem is that even though it's not that far away, the walk to the shower seems to be just a little too much. Then they sort of amass at the front, as if debating who goes first even though there are WAY more than enough shower heads and they are 1 space apart. These 2 delays seem to cause problems, mainly because my prisoners seems to have a strange hardcore spike in hygiene at about 6am. I even tried to move the shower block back to 5am and the spike just happens earlier lmao Seems strange to me because I don't actually have them "sleep" at all. I just use enough "freetime" to meet their needs.

I am convinced the best method is smaller showers just a quick shot away from cells.

On a side note... I can't seem to get them to shower properly with just freetime. I know other have but if I don't tell them to go shower when the spike hits, it's like they won't go. Not sure what's the cause of this though lmao
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby BugPowderDust » Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:30 pm

Interesting post HeroFV, very interesting.

I actually force sleep on them, but like yours, they seem reluctant to actually start showering, then suddenly most do. I figured that bladder/bowels is top of their 'to do' list, so the toilets in the shower area do seem to help.

About freetime- the odd prisoner or two does have a shower in freetime, but not many. I guess showering takes a lower priority to other needs- eg. you can get by without a shower without much detrimental effect, but if you need to eat or go to the toilet it can be quite stressful I guess
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:06 pm

It's a bit of a known issue that the hygiene need is a bit severe. While a bug or not, you also won't see the danger level increase until the prisoners are awake even though many hygiene needs go into the red while they're sleeping. The result is an explosion of danger where you go from zero to 3/4 of the population with a serious need. The danger meter rises quickly with that much weight on it. As discussed so far in this thread, the only real defense is to have them shower early with a shower regime immediately after sleep. You also need to get them in the shower before that danger meter rises too high or you'll have a riot every morning.

We explained the danger meter not rising while prisoners are asleep by saying they were unconscious in this thread. Not sure if this was the game-play design, however. There's also discussion on this same hygiene issue in there as well. As I say in the aforementioned thread, I'm still of the opinion that the hygiene need both rises too quickly, and is further aggravated by prisoners not "topping off" their needs when given the opportunity.

Another similar thread here.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby HeroFV » Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:11 pm

_alphaBeta_ wrote:It's a bit of a known issue that the hygiene need is a bit severe. While a bug or not, you also won't see the danger level increase until the prisoners are awake even though many hygiene needs go into the red while they're sleeping. The result is an explosion of danger where you go from zero to 3/4 of the population with a serious need. The danger meter rises quickly with that much weight on it. As discussed so far in this thread, the only real defense is to have them shower early with a shower regime immediately after sleep. You also need to get them in the shower before that danger meter rises too high or you'll have a riot every morning.

We explained the danger meter not rising while prisoners are asleep by saying they were unconscious in this thread. Not sure if this was the game-play design, however. There's also discussion on this same hygiene issue in there as well. As I say in the aforementioned thread, I'm still of the opinion that the hygiene need both rises too quickly, and is further aggravated by prisoners not "topping off" their needs when given the opportunity.

Another similar thread here.


Interesting. I like and agree with your points on hygiene in the first link.

Thanx for the links too :P
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby UberFuber » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:17 am

I agree with the hygiene need rising too quickly, especially when they're sleeping. I try getting them to shower before Sleep, but they still "red-lined" in 6 hours.
Doesn't make a lot of sense, I know a lot of people who bath and night instead of in the morning, and they're perfectly fine and well adjusted.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby Meeeps » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:07 pm

I don't use shower in the regime anymore, It is IMO a waste of time, I simply extend the canteen to the shower and so they shower also on eat time, my regime is usually very simple like 5h work - 1h eat and this 4 times, I have around half of the inmates for work, the other half has free time.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby xander » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:53 pm

Meeeps wrote:I don't use shower in the regime anymore, It is IMO a waste of time, I simply extend the canteen to the shower and so they shower also on eat time, my regime is usually very simple like 5h work - 1h eat and this 4 times, I have around half of the inmates for work, the other half has free time.

It is strategies like this that make me hope that some kind of disease model is introduced into the game. :P

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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby LopsidedJohnson » Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:45 am

I agree with xander on this one. Personally, I believe that the morning hygiene concern is a little out of control but I still can't justify throwing toilets next to serving tables. I play 'legit' so to speak in the hopes that this will be resolved at a later date on BOTH ends. A disease system makes a ton of sense and would force even players who manage needs well to have a decent-sized infirmary. In my prisons, my doctors spend 99.9% of their time idly wandering around a tiny room with two beds.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:04 pm

LopsidedJohnson wrote:In my prisons, my doctors spend 99.9% of their time idly wandering around a tiny room with two beds.

Yes, agree that doctors and infirmaries need more of a role, and a disease model would seem logical. Would be interesting to see if prisoners can spend the night in the infirmary as well, which really means slowing the healing process down significantly. This brings additional gameplay and security concerns.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby LordMarconius » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:12 pm

My primarily design concern for most of my recent prisons is to try and keep as few prisoners in one place as possible; the higher the population density in one space, the more likely fights are to break out, I find, it's just simple statistics.

So I tend to make at most 20 man cell blocks with fairly small showers; my latest prison actually has no public showers, each cell has its own little shower room... bit of a luxury, but it's stable, and actually more efficient, because I don't need dedicated shower time, prisoners can just shower whenever they feel like it, or spend their time shooting pool or whatever if they don't want to; keep in mind it doesn't take anywhere near an hour to shower, so prisoners will likely spend like half an hour standing around naked if you have dedicated shower time.
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby Ric666 » Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:15 pm

LordMarconius wrote:So I tend to make at most 20 man cell blocks with fairly small showers; my latest prison actually has no public showers, each cell has its own little shower room... bit of a luxury, but it's stable, and actually more efficient, because I don't need dedicated shower time, prisoners can just shower whenever they feel like it, or spend their time shooting pool or whatever if they don't want to; keep in mind it doesn't take anywhere near an hour to shower, so prisoners will likely spend like half an hour standing around naked if you have dedicated shower time.


I've been doing this for a long time also. Ends up taking no more space than a dedicated shower room & works a treat(no more morning fights).
Although I still have a shower time of an hour after they wake up just to make sure those dirty inmates get a good scrubbing! :)
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Re: Grumpy morning prisoners

Postby LordMarconius » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:23 pm

Ric666 wrote:
LordMarconius wrote:So I tend to make at most 20 man cell blocks with fairly small showers; my latest prison actually has no public showers, each cell has its own little shower room... bit of a luxury, but it's stable, and actually more efficient, because I don't need dedicated shower time, prisoners can just shower whenever they feel like it, or spend their time shooting pool or whatever if they don't want to; keep in mind it doesn't take anywhere near an hour to shower, so prisoners will likely spend like half an hour standing around naked if you have dedicated shower time.


I've been doing this for a long time also. Ends up taking no more space than a dedicated shower room & works a treat(no more morning fights).
Although I still have a shower time of an hour after they wake up just to make sure those dirty inmates get a good scrubbing! :)


Only problem with that is it wastes time. It doesn't take a full hour to shower, so it's kinda pointless to dedicate a full hour to it; prisoners won't actually leave the shower room during shower time.

I'm also not actually sure what happens during shower time if you don't have dedicated shower rooms... do prisoners still go find a shower and scrub? Or do they treat it as free time?

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