Riots

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spinroblox
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Re: Riots

Postby spinroblox » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:09 am

Meeeps wrote:Also interesting, prisoners tend not to try to break out at riots, if I let the game run away and a riot happen, I come back, every guard is dead, but all prisoners are still in, why?

if you were rioting because you weren't fed you would take the canteen to eat some food and preserve yourself and stay where you will for sure be cared for maybe a fight or two but that's about the extent of the pain where as in normal some of us run death camps to kill the prisoners
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Penroyaltea
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Re: Riots

Postby Penroyaltea » Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:35 pm

Riots are massively OP at the moment, they break out too easily and are too deadly.
The game is getting less playable not more, I hope there are just bugs and it's not going to be like this in the end game.
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Meeeps
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Re: Riots

Postby Meeeps » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:47 pm

Also there is no need to kill every unconscious guard.
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Re: Riots

Postby Provic » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:24 am

Well, part of the issue is that due to the way combat is handled, once you hit a certain number of inmates actively fighting, even locally outnumbering them 2:1 with guards won't really do anything to stop the mass carnage. Nobody ever retreats or surrenders, and the combatants don't really distribute properly when a large group of guards encounters a large group of prisoners. So you end up with weird situations where 10 inmates will decide to simultaneously attack the same guard because he happened to be closest (instantly killing him), and completely ignore the other 19 guards that are right beside him. One solution might be to prioritize fighting "live" enemies over killing unconscious guards, but I suspect that to really "fix" the bloodiness of riots we'll need to wait for refinements to the combat system, and that's probably not a super-high development priority. Inmate-on-inmate murders during riots are obviously also a problem, but that might be better addressed by simply allowing you to solve the murders using autopsies, CCTV, dog searches, etc.

That being said, I suspect that a large number of riot-related concerns are a result of a single class of event, which is the absolutely massive, prison-wide mega-riots that tend to happen when something starts acting weirdly with needs fulfillment. This isn't really a problem with the handling of riots themselves quite so much as an issue with the tuning of the needs system; the riot will tend to be very difficult to control because absolutely everyone has hit their breaking point simultaneously, so the riot triggers will occur pretty much everywhere at once.

One scenario that I've seen complained about a lot is the tendency to have a huge unrest spike (and sometimes a riot) very soon after prisoners wake up in the morning and for some reason aren't able to resolve one of their "basic" needs (hygiene or toilet). You can spot the source of the problem by just watching a normal, riot-free morning: if you've given the prisoners a decent amount of sleeping time, just the act of walking to the shower will often result in dangerously high unrest levels. Even in prisons where I've deliberately equipped every single cell with its own shower to ensure absolutely minimal build-up time for the morning fury, the unrest meter will often hit 40-70% in the time it takes the inmates to shower and use the toilet -- the prisoners are literally raging at the prospect of having to walk three feet from the bed to the toilet. I can't help but imagine that this isn't intended behavior, since not only is it rather silly but it also severely constrains regime choices for those critical first two slots in the morning -- eating or exercising before showering is a surprisingly high-risk choice.
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Re: Riots

Postby tekkitan » Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:06 pm

Provic wrote:Inmate-on-inmate murders during riots are obviously also a problem, but that might be better addressed by simply allowing you to solve the murders using autopsies, CCTV, dog searches, etc.


If you can get CCTV working, which I cannot. No matter what I do the cameras say there are no CCTV Monitors when I have two with guards stationed at each one.
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Re: Riots

Postby Vark » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:44 pm

VoiD88 wrote:Little tip, although untested (I never had any riots except for one time when I deliberately deprived them of everything because I wanted to experience the feature :P): I believe Prisoners who see a Riot going on join in. If that is true, hitting the Bangup button the moment a riot breaks out should significantly reduce the number of prisoners joining in.


Tested this once, it works! They walk like zombies to their cells. (except the ones who are allready involded, they stop for a second and then decide to "Keep calm and keep fighting")
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Re: Riots

Postby b0rk » Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:08 am

Provic wrote:Well, part of the issue is that due to the way combat is handled, once you hit a certain number of inmates actively fighting, even locally outnumbering them 2:1 with guards won't really do anything to stop the mass carnage.

<snip>

One scenario that I've seen complained about a lot is the tendency to have a huge unrest spike (and sometimes a riot) very soon after prisoners wake up in the morning and for some reason aren't able to resolve one of their "basic" needs (hygiene or toilet). You can spot the source of the problem by just watching a normal, riot-free morning: if you've given the prisoners a decent amount of sleeping time, just the act of walking to the shower will often result in dangerously high unrest levels. Even in prisons where I've deliberately equipped every single cell with its own shower to ensure absolutely minimal build-up time for the morning fury, the unrest meter will often hit 40-70% in the time it takes the inmates to shower and use the toilet -- the prisoners are literally raging at the prospect of having to walk three feet from the bed to the toilet. I can't help but imagine that this isn't intended behavior, since not only is it rather silly but it also severely constrains regime choices for those critical first two slots in the morning -- eating or exercising before showering is a surprisingly high-risk choice.


With A16 introducing segregation options I've thinking about and playing more with larger jails. IMHO the problem with the riot system is that currently we only have the riot mechanism (driven by needs fulfillment) but not the suppression/control system whilst armouries and staff riot guards are unimplemented. So the only method of needs management is by fulfillment. I suspect that when we see the other half the system it will be possible to run a prison with highly unfulfilled needs and rely on suppression to keep order most of the time. Such a strategy will I suspect result in the odd total prison riot due to extended over suppression.

Whilst I agree that tuning of the system to reduce the unrest spike at wake up is needed as the current system seemingly behaves randomly in terms of generating a total prison riot. As you note adopting extreme cell design of providing in cell showers doesn't cure the problem.

I do not see unrest related riots due to the regime not providing shower or freetime after waking as being unexpected you would and should expect basic needs of hygiene and toilet to be high upon waking so a regime that does not fulfill these should ultimately result in unrest. However having a means of constant suppression would then make such a strategy viable.

The current approach of using bang up and lockdown to manage a large riot whilst flooding a given area with riot guards and/or normal guards which promptly get killed isn't really a solution and the system should ultimately punish such poor prison management once suitable tools are available. Equally setting a regime based on the guards basically killing the inmates to maintain order is also probably something the system should punish much like escapes and unsolved murders are currently. Moveover rioting prisoners should try and either escape or smash up more the prison not stay within the initial riot area.

The outcome of a bang up and certainly a lockdown can be another riot at the point you try and reintroduce normality e.g. coming out of lockdown just before meal time when for obvious reason's no meals have been cooked and the unrest temperature is high due to the lockdown.

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