External Laundry

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External Laundry

Postby knoest26 » Sat Sep 14, 2013 5:43 pm

I think it would be a nice and expensive feature to have your laundry done by a company instead of you prisoners as a choice. When building a maximum security facility I hate to have to let my max prisoners out to eat :twisted: and find it even worse to give them the freedom of work.....

Perhaps it could be an option under regime where you could select how often you want clean clothing and then every set amount of days a few vans would arrive with a few laundryworkers with baskets and distribute and collect clothing. this could also help you in the beginning since you don't have to build a rather expensive laundry room.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby christopher1006 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:41 am

Contracting labor in the form of construction, cleaning and cooking has been suggested a few times before and I still support the idea. It was also suggested that contraband could be snuck in through those contracted services so you'd have to have some way to check them before they came in and out of the prison.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby twisteddman » Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:49 pm

personally i think this defeats the whole purpose of the game , by allowing you to manage less of the services your self
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Re: External Laundry

Postby knoest26 » Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:26 pm

@twisteddman
That's why I think it should be an option, the developers want to allow the player to decide as much as possible, thus it doesn't go against the game's purpose. Choices
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Re: External Laundry

Postby snarst » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:02 pm

+1
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Re: External Laundry

Postby Xoligy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 1:32 am

Im against this idea, mainly because a prison is ment to be hard with rules not a holiday camp where everything is dont for them, next you will say you want an automated workshop or an external company coming in to do the work of the prisoners lol

I dont get why people by a prison game then want to make holiday camps surely there are games made for that type of thing? *looks on internet* yuuup!
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Re: External Laundry

Postby Gondlar » Thu Sep 19, 2013 2:05 am

Xoligy wrote:Im against this idea, mainly because a prison is ment to be hard with rules not a holiday camp where everything is dont for them, next you will say you want an automated workshop or an external company coming in to do the work of the prisoners lol

I dont get why people by a prison game then want to make holiday camps surely there are games made for that type of thing? *looks on internet* yuuup!

I think that's mostly because at this time the laundry feels buggy as hell and it takes some time do make the prisoners actually do the laundry instead of walking in circles around the washing machine. Hiring a company to do the laundry for you would make the game easier (which is why I am against this, I don't like easy games ;)).
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Re: External Laundry

Postby xander » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:00 am

Xoligy wrote:Im against this idea, mainly because a prison is ment to be hard with rules not a holiday camp where everything is dont for them, next you will say you want an automated workshop or an external company coming in to do the work of the prisoners lol

I dont get why people by a prison game then want to make holiday camps surely there are games made for that type of thing? *looks on internet* yuuup!

In your immediate rush to condemn any idea that veers from your personal idea about how the game should be run, I think that you have missed how this could actually introduce interesting game mechanics. As I see it (and, in most cases, as has already been pointed out above):
  • Contracting out the laundry introduces a new route for contraband. Instead of prisoners having access to irons and bleach, now they might be able to smuggle in nearly anything.
  • Contracting out the laundry allows a player to make a meaningful choice about to get their prison off the ground and running. Currently, prisoners will complain about dirty clothes, which indicates to the player that they need to get a laundry running quickly. This, in turn, requires research into two items on the tech tree, as well as hiring a Foreman, which is costly both in terms of cash and time. Allow the player to contract the laundry out, and they have a (possibly expensive) way of satisfying the clothing need while also being able to focus on other parts of the tech tree in the early game. Now the game has a meaningful choice for the player to make.
  • From the standpoint of realism, there is no argument against contracting out the laundry. You can rant all you want about how this treats the prisoners like tourists at a vacation camp, but many high security prisons in the US have contracts for their laundry because the prisoners themselves are in isolation 23 hours a day. The prisoners have neither the freedom nor the trust of the system to be allowed to do their own laundry. I don't see how this is treating them like vacationers. In fact, in a right-wing hellhole, it seems that contracting out the laundry is an ideal solution.

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Re: External Laundry

Postby Ric666 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:30 pm

Xoligy wrote:Im against this idea, mainly because a prison is ment to be hard with rules not a holiday camp where everything is dont for them, next you will say you want an automated workshop or an external company coming in to do the work of the prisoners lol

I dont get why people by a prison game then want to make holiday camps surely there are games made for that type of thing? *looks on internet* yuuup!


Maybe we like to make people happy & are not cruel wardens like yourself ;)
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Re: External Laundry

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:22 pm

xander wrote:
  • Contracting out the laundry allows a player to make a meaningful choice about to get their prison off the ground and running. Currently, prisoners will complain about dirty clothes, which indicates to the player that they need to get a laundry running quickly. This, in turn, requires research into two items on the tech tree, as well as hiring a Foreman, which is costly both in terms of cash and time. Allow the player to contract the laundry out, and they have a (possibly expensive) way of satisfying the clothing need while also being able to focus on other parts of the tech tree in the early game. Now the game has a meaningful choice for the player to make.

This is the key point I was going to make. The prisoners currently arrive with all their needs "active" and on the rise. I've long felt that it shouldn't be required to have every type of room setup in a prison that is just starting out. Contracting out services like this would be a nice answer (especially because having prisoner needs "unlock" after a certain amount of time just feels silly). I'd also suggest services to become more expensive in a non-linear way to provide incentive to the player to eventually build facilities of their own.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby Xoligy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:33 pm

Ric666 wrote:Maybe we like to make people happy & are not cruel wardens like yourself ;)

Pah! You'll never survive in my prison! :P

_alphaBeta_ wrote:This is the key point I was going to make. The prisoners currently arrive with all their needs "active" and on the rise. I've long felt that it shouldn't be required to have every type of room setup in a prison that is just starting out. Contracting out services like this would be a nice answer (especially because having prisoner needs "unlock" after a certain amount of time just feels silly). I'd also suggest services to become more expensive in a non-linear way to provide incentive to the player to eventually build facilities of their own.


In the current state of the game its not that hard to have every room made in a few days, as people keep saying the game will be balanced at a later date anyhow so them coming in with these needs could change.

I believe the idea is that you design a "fully" working prison not a half prison with everything outsourced to make the game a piece of cake, where you just build a few offices a medical bay, canteen kitchen oh and dont forget the cells! "What about laundry? We Need laundry dont we?!" Naaah we'll out source that, have the game take care of it and remove a challenge of the player having to sort out the laundry (something we dont even know how is going to work at the moment as it could all change).

Ive not seen anything about costs per day (seeing as thats when we get the money) besides if you can afford to outsource the laundry then why can you not build it from the start? Isn't it just going to cost more at a later date? Ive also not seen anything about benefits or disadvantages to this outsourcing, also who says its going to be better? Maybe they are slower than the prisoners, also who's going to escort them around will they need protection? See its all adding up in costs.

Cost - Outsourcing
Cost - Guarding
Unhappiness - Them being slower?

How is it going to work?
Do they magically build a laundry right net to your prison?
Do they come in at 9am take x% of dirty uniforms then drive off and come back in a day or two?
Do they plan it all in advance?
Is the contract per beds/prisoners/how ig your prison is? (this falls under costs i admit that im just going off top of my head)

This is everything that needs to be thought about, people have ideas but dont think about them how they work, the advantages and disadvantaged of it all. Anyway best get ready off for a drink.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby MAdMaN » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:22 pm

Xoligy wrote:Ive also not seen anything about benefits or disadvantages to this outsourcing

Second post in the thread where contraband is mentioned. Also prisoners could use it as a means of escape.
Last edited by MAdMaN on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:28 pm

Xoligy wrote:In the current state of the game its not that hard to have every room made in a few days, as people keep saying the game will be balanced at a later date anyhow so them coming in with these needs could change.

Well I didn't say it was difficult, but it just feels cumbersome. I usually have to do a good amount of building and setup long before the first few prisoners arrive. I was attracted to the idea because it allows the possibility of not having to research the entire tech tree and build all the essential rooms before the first prisoner arrives.

Xoligy wrote:I believe the idea is that you design a "fully" working prison not a half prison with everything outsourced to make the game a piece of cake, where you just build a few offices a medical bay, canteen kitchen oh and dont forget the cells! "What about laundry? We Need laundry dont we?!" Naaah we'll out source that, have the game take care of it and remove a challenge of the player having to sort out the laundry (something we dont even know how is going to work at the moment as it could all change).

This has been a hot topic on other threads. You're essentially mandating the way that other players will enjoy a simulator. I see no issue if a player wants nothing to do with laundry, even beyond their starter prison. I personally wouldn't use this feature beyond the early days of my prison, but I'm not going to tell others how to play the game.

Xoligy wrote:Ive not seen anything about costs per day (seeing as thats when we get the money) besides if you can afford to outsource the laundry then why can you not build it from the start? Isn't it just going to cost more at a later date? Ive also not seen anything about benefits or disadvantages to this outsourcing, also who says its going to be better? Maybe they are slower than the prisoners, also who's going to escort them around will they need protection? See its all adding up in costs.

I'd have no problems if it was slower and has higher recurring costs. There should be a tradeoff, as I said earlier. Not enough of a tradeoff to force the player into a play style, but enough that the player would need to compromise if they opted to continue to use it.

Xoligy wrote:How is it going to work?
Do they magically build a laundry right net to your prison?
Do they come in at 9am take x% of dirty uniforms then drive off and come back in a day or two?
Do they plan it all in advance?
Is the contract per beds/prisoners/how ig your prison is? (this falls under costs i admit that im just going off top of my head)

This is everything that needs to be thought about, people have ideas but dont think about them how they work, the advantages and disadvantaged of it all.

Isn't this what we're discussing? I don't think someone should have to provide the entire game mechanic just to make a suggestion. You've possed very good questions, and if others think this idea has merit, I'm sure they'll weight in and help to shape the mechanics.

Xoligy wrote:Anyway best get ready off for a drink.

You and me both.
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Re: External Laundry

Postby Xoligy » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:46 pm

MAdMaN wrote:
Xoligy wrote:Ive also not seen anything about benefits or disadvantages to this outsourcing

Second post in the thread where contraband is mentioned. Also prisoners could use it as a means of escape.

Really? So there is so far one negative thing to getting contractors in? Even though there are loads of others on the forum of many have come up with, one... (and the easy one at that)

Forgive me alpha if i got name wrong im typing everything...
_alphaBeta_ wrote:Well I didn't say it was difficult, but it just feels cumbersome. I usually have to do a good amount of building and setup long before the first few prisoners arrive. I was attracted to the idea because it allows the possibility of not having to research the entire tech tree and build all the essential rooms before the first prisoner arrives.

Until balance comes into play its hard to say how things will actually work dont you agree? Right now they come in wit around 50% needs (last time i checked i only play for a week then play something else so im not bored). So the needs system could change come release, personally think they are too generous with the 90k start off 70K would make it abit more challenging but, people would still complain because they want to build a prison in well, seconds.

_alphaBeta_ wrote:This has been a hot topic on other threads. You're essentially mandating the way that other players will enjoy a simulator. I see no issue if a player wants nothing to do with laundry, even beyond their starter prison. I personally wouldn't use this feature beyond the early days of my prison, but I'm not going to tell others how to play the game.

I'm not mandating anything, im giving my opinion and if others dont agree then so well be it. As i said to one youtuber on twitter before i closed my accounts im disappointed with many of the ideas in the game because they all seem to be for "making the game easier and less managed" i mean look at this idea. Your ment to design a prison but, then outsource your laundry because the player is too lazy to design a working laundry system? If people want to be that lazy then hell pay me a fiver and i'll build a okoring prison for you but no, wait everything must be for free for an easier life....

_alphaBeta_ wrote:I'd have no problems if it was slower and has higher recurring costs. There should be a tradeoff, as I said earlier. Not enough of a tradeoff to force the player into a play style, but enough that the player would need to compromise if they opted to continue to use it.

I said i was against this idea and explaind in little detail why, why? Because there is little detail in the whole idea as ive said before people come up witht ideas but dont explain how they can work, the benefits the disadvantage nothing its just... "I have an idea lets add this it can do this and err, yes hats it" In my post im asking many questions and i have a reply to basically one (though i could be wrong im slightly drunk :P ) which is contraband as a downfall

I know im the "negative" person on the forums but, if we were all positive then we wouldnt all see the disadvantages to the ideas, if people explained there ideas in more deatails like i said before and explained things like the benefits and the disadvatages i would be less negative and ask a more decent question like...

Well, you said that contraband can be smuggled in, which i agree is a disadvantage. But what type of contraband can come in is it limited? All kinds? Can keys for doors be brought in for escapes....? > later game if this ever happened this is just an example what if a phoe was brought in from a gang member and the prison didnt know could it "arrange" a prison break? (yes im all up for more ways to escape) example of one idea i have and i have a few when im sober just dont talk about them i se no point i see my ideas more of an "addon" that may never get released unless i try and learnt o code this language.

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Re: External Laundry

Postby xander » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:17 am

Xoligy wrote:Really? So there is so far one negative thing to getting contractors in? Even though there are loads of others on the forum of many have come up with, one... (and the easy one at that)

  1. laundry deliveries are a contraband entry point
  2. laundry pick ups are an escape route (and I am strongly of the opinion that there ought to be more ways for prisoners to escape)
  3. laundry contracts cost money (as a balance issue, compare to cooks (more secure) vs prison labor (cheaper)---yes, balance is a beta issue, but there is no reason that we can't think about it now)
  4. laundry transport as a block to efficiency (workers have to move laundry around, rather than prisoners, thus utilizing possibly limited resources)
  5. (spitballing a bit here) laundry trucks as an impediment to other delivery vehicles (or even emergency vehicles)
  6. (again, spitballing) external laundry contractors might have an impact on the needs system (maybe the contractors are inefficient and cannot satisfy the clothing needs entirely, or the lack of meaningful work causes prisoners to get bored (i.e. the recreation or safety needs might not be met)
Aside from that, I think that it should be possible (if not easy) to run a prison without having to perform any research. That is currently possible, as one can hire cooks, guards, and workers without doing any research. With these staff, it is possible, but not easy, to manage a prison. If clothing becomes a riotable need, then this will no longer be possible, and, in fact, several levels of tech need to be researched before the need can be met. An external laundry contractor makes is possible to make the clothing need a rioting need.

Here, however, is an alternative: the addition of another staff position. The "Laundry Worker" (or whatever you choose to call it) lives in a Laundry (like Cooks live in the Kitchen), runs the wash, and delivers laundry.

Xoligy wrote:
_alphaBeta_ wrote:This has been a hot topic on other threads. You're essentially mandating the way that other players will enjoy a simulator. I see no issue if a player wants nothing to do with laundry, even beyond their starter prison. I personally wouldn't use this feature beyond the early days of my prison, but I'm not going to tell others how to play the game.

I'm not mandating anything, im giving my opinion and if others dont agree then so well be it. As i said to one youtuber on twitter before i closed my accounts im disappointed with many of the ideas in the game because they all seem to be for "making the game easier and less managed" i mean look at this idea. Your ment to design a prison but, then outsource your laundry because the player is too lazy to design a working laundry system? If people want to be that lazy then hell pay me a fiver and i'll build a okoring prison for you but no, wait everything must be for free for an easier life....

You are dismissive and combative towards people who would like to play the game differently from the way that you feel is the "right" way to play the game. It is not that you disagree with people (or that people disagree with you), it is that you fail to acknowledge the possibility that there is any merit to the idea, or that there are any interesting gameplay mechanics beyond "It'll make the game easier! Waaa!"

A bad implementation of external contractors would make the game easier. A good implementation could give players meaningful choices, introduce interesting game mechanics, and provide additional challenges.

Xoligy wrote:I know im the "negative" person on the forums but, if we were all positive then we wouldnt all see the disadvantages to the ideas, if people explained there ideas in more deatails like i said before and explained things like the benefits and the disadvatages i would be less negative and ask a more decent question like...

The problem is not that you are negative, it is that you are narrow minded, and are insulting to those that don't see the game in exactly the same way that you do.

Xoligy wrote:Well, you said that contraband can be smuggled in, which i agree is a disadvantage. But what type of contraband can come in is it limited? All kinds? Can keys for doors be brought in for escapes....? > later game if this ever happened this is just an example what if a phoe was brought in from a gang member and the prison didnt know could it "arrange" a prison break? (yes im all up for more ways to escape) example of one idea i have and i have a few when im sober just dont talk about them i se no point i see my ideas more of an "addon" that may never get released unless i try and learnt o code this language.

Hey! A positive contribution to the thread! Yay! I would think that the kinds of contraband that can be smuggled in via the laundry would have to be similar to those that can be smuggled in by new prisoners or by visitors. That is to say, just about anything. I like the idea of phones coming through the laundry and escape plans being made via phone.

To go off on a tangent, I previously asked how a bribery mechanic might work (i.e. how does a bribe help a prisoner escape?). I think you answered that question for me (or, at least, provided one possible answer): a prisoner can bribe a guard to get a key. This would definitely give the prisoner an advantage in attempting to escape, but is also not a magic bullet, and can be prevented by the player.

xander

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