Digging is a little insane

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Malorn
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Digging is a little insane

Postby Malorn » Sun Sep 08, 2013 1:45 am

Not attempting to feature complain, just rather curious. Are my prisoners supposed to be able to dig 40 square tunnels in a single night? They're digging through walls, with no weak water pipes, and they do it every night. In the morning I search everyone, take all their tools, and fill in all their tunnels. The next night, they start again . . .

Not even sure how they keep getting the spoons, as there are functional metal detectors between the canteen and their cells. Opinions?
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blipadouzi
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby blipadouzi » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:23 am

Shared via Twitter by IntroversionSoftware ‏on 5 Sep

Escape tunnels are taking a heavy nerf today. They will become much more rare from now on

https://twitter.com/IVSoftware/status/3 ... 8713728000
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McLumberjack
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby McLumberjack » Sun Sep 08, 2013 2:29 am

I've noticed (or, well, assumed) the metal detectors are a bit avoidable in certain layouts. Watch a crowd go through some and you'll see some will cut the corner and not get 'blipped'. Put two side by side in a two wide 'vertical' hall and they'll stick to the walls creating a gap in the middle. There's also the fact that a metal detector going off isn't detecting for a few seconds, so the next guy through could be carrying anything. This lets a lot through when a large crowd leaves somewhere like the canteen.

There's also a case of guards getting overwhelmed, look at some contraband once you've found it and you'll sometimes see it was stolen, detected and then hidden before the inmate was searched. If you don't see it happen and toss the cell manually you'll miss it. Having enough guards to search everyone is next to impossible given the way guard jobs are sometimes given to a free guard who could be on the other side of the prison.

Lastly the regime is important. Keep the day busy and you'll give your inmates no time to dig, you'll need some free time for them to fill their needs, but break it up with work, yard, shower and eating time properly and they'll spend most of their time busy or moving given a proper layout. Any free time they can muster will be used to fill a need. Make sure you have enough jobs for everyone come work time, or your free inmates will still be able to dig.

blipadouzi wrote:Shared via Twitter by IntroversionSoftware ‏on 5 Sep

Escape tunnels are taking a heavy nerf today. They will become much more rare from now on

https://twitter.com/IVSoftware/status/3 ... 8713728000


Aw. Keeping a lid on that was the only entertainment I had in my crime free, clockwork prison. I'm going to have to shut the water off again.
Malorn
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Malorn » Sun Sep 08, 2013 3:01 am

The desire to dig I understand, the ability to dig so far surprises me somewhat. The main odd fact was that over half the prison was digging each night, so they are getting those spoons on mass. Perhaps it's easier to just search every night before bed, after free time.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sun Sep 08, 2013 4:39 am

McLumberjack wrote:I've noticed (or, well, assumed) the metal detectors are a bit avoidable in certain layouts. Watch a crowd go through some and you'll see some will cut the corner and not get 'blipped'. Put two side by side in a two wide 'vertical' hall and they'll stick to the walls creating a gap in the middle. There's also the fact that a metal detector going off isn't detecting for a few seconds, so the next guy through could be carrying anything. This lets a lot through when a large crowd leaves somewhere like the canteen.

There's also a case of guards getting overwhelmed, look at some contraband once you've found it and you'll sometimes see it was stolen, detected and then hidden before the inmate was searched. If you don't see it happen and toss the cell manually you'll miss it. Having enough guards to search everyone is next to impossible given the way guard jobs are sometimes given to a free guard who could be on the other side of the prison.

I believe detectors were weakened in this manner to actually allow the occasional contraband through. While the mechanic of a metal detector taking 3 seconds to "reboot" seems a bit silly, I think the point is to simulate that no contraband control is 100% effective. Plus if players could guarantee contraband-free prisons so easily, some would see that as a useless addition to the game.

That said, there's additional discussion on this here, with additional links. In short, they try to address the issue of a mob moving through a detector choke point.

McLumberjack wrote:Lastly the regime is important. Keep the day busy and you'll give your inmates no time to dig, you'll need some free time for them to fill their needs, but break it up with work, yard, shower and eating time properly and they'll spend most of their time busy or moving given a proper layout. Any free time they can muster will be used to fill a need. Make sure you have enough jobs for everyone come work time, or your free inmates will still be able to dig.

I'm not entirely sure about this, as I thought the intention was for prisoners to dig at night while they're supposedly sleeping. There have been reports of prisoners digging during free-time, however, but I haven't caught a prisoner in the act during this time. Those reports could be in the context of free-time scheduled during 10pm and 8am where prisoners are able to sleep (as of Alpha 10). If they're sleeping, they can therefore dig. Just something to keep in mind.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby cheesypiglet » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:00 am

What about the ability for guards of chef to do an inventory check? If there are items missing this could automatically start a cell shakedown. Also if a shakedown is started because of missing cutlery from kitchen or tools from workshop, once guards recover the contraband from an individual prisoner it could lead to all the other prisoners resenting that individual as he is the reason they all had their cells searched. Might make the game a bit complicated though I suppose.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Der_Doodle » Sun Sep 08, 2013 9:27 am

I must do something wrong in my prisons I think. Cause digging is never that much of a problem for me. In a Cell check every 2 days about 5% of my inmates only dig a tunnel but I manage to keep the amount of tools in my prison extremly low.

In my opinion the amount of tunnels really should not be nerved but maybe the speed in wich they dig slightl lowered (and you can lower it yourself alot if you plan your small pipes and big pipes)

From my current experiences I would say digging speed is under
concrete/brick walls 1-2 squares a night
along small pipes around 3 squares night
along large pipes 4-5 squares a night.
perimeter wall takes around 3 nights to get through.

Numbers testet with a safe file before a cellblock search writing down tunnel length reloading and new check a day later.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Malorn » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:27 pm

See those numbers would be just fine with me. Sadly that is not what I've been seeing. I certainly agree with the premise that detectors shouldn't be perfect, I guess I'm just surprised to be filling in a tunnel in every other cell each morning.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Der_Doodle » Sun Sep 08, 2013 12:36 pm

So far my new prison is running on day 21 current prisoner hold 70. During those 21 days I had less then 10 different tunnels in total.

The most important part to stop your prisoners from digging is keeping the tools low.
Kitchen is off-limits for my inmates.
Workshop/Cantine are metal detector protected.

During the work/yard/lunch hours when my prisoners are not in their cellblocks I regularly do some spotchecks to look for hidden tools. (roughly all 2-3 days) So far i never had more then 3-4 tools flying around in my prison most of the days the tool suply bar is empty.
The result is that my prisoners dont dig (basicly) any tunnels.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Malorn » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:40 pm

Interesting, that has not been my experience, it really really hasn't.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Der_Doodle » Mon Sep 09, 2013 2:04 pm

Malorn how many tools have you running loose in your prison?
Do you have Metal Detectors infront of your Kantine/Kitchen/Workshops?
As long as you limit the amount of tools tunneling really isnt an issue.

My prison is now with a fluctuating population of 130-150. I search all cell blocks every 3rd day now during yard/eating block so I dont search my prisoners (silly complains are not needed) and within 3 days my prisoners dig in average 2-3 tunnels now with a length of 1-3 squares each.

40 of those 150 cells are only 4 squares away from the map edge and they dont make any troubles either
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Malorn » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:33 pm

There is only a canteen, and there are two metal detector checkpoints between that and their cells. Looking at things, the demand for tools is huge, which makes me think they want to escape more.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby McLumberjack » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:06 pm

This is becoming quite the mystery.

What does the needs report say? You'll need a psychologist I think to see it.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby Der_Doodle » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:40 pm

Hmm I thought prisoners need tools to dig tunnels?

Cause according to my contraband Tab I had ZERO tools the last 2 days in my 150 inmate prison but during the last 2 days they managed to dig somehow 3 tunnels each 2 squares long.
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Re: Digging is a little insane

Postby xander » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:52 pm

Der_Doodle wrote:Hmm I thought prisoners need tools to dig tunnels?

Cause according to my contraband Tab I had ZERO tools the last 2 days in my 150 inmate prison but during the last 2 days they managed to dig somehow 3 tunnels each 2 squares long.

I am not convinced that the contraband report currently functions correctly. What does a shakedown turn up?

xander

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