I'm really perplexed...

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McEdy
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I'm really perplexed...

Postby McEdy » Mon Sep 02, 2013 7:41 pm

I have a problem: i want to keep the prisons contrabant in control but it doesn't work... The prisoners always manage it to take some metal things (only metal things in this discussion because they are the only things which are detectable at the moment) with them into their cells :( Then they start to dig xD Is there a way to reduce the contrabant in your prison? (I have LOTS of metal detectors ^^)
I don't want 0% contrabant but perhaps around 15% so that I can do other things in my prison than filling up all the tunnels xD

Btw: do the prisoners use their stolen weapons in alpha 13? i saw it in alpha 11 and 12 I think... If they don't do so in alpha 13 then PLS make them doing it! That was awesome :D
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Postby CplHenderson » Mon Sep 02, 2013 8:25 pm

Thing about metal detectors is that there are a variety of ways to get past them. Firstly, your prisoners can sometimes walk around them, depending on placement.

Even if this doesn't happen, many times metal detectors will falsely go off. When a metal detector goes off, it gets "jammed up" for about 3 seconds. In that time no prisoners will be scanned. So if twenty prisoners go through a metal detector exiting the canteen, but one of the sets the metal detector off, ALL the prisoners passing through the detector for the next 3 seconds won't be scanned. Even if the one that set the detector off did have contraband, you just let ten prisoners go without being scanned. And of course, prisoners with contraband will make an effort to go through "jammed up" detectors.

Finally, it can take a while for a guard to actually search a prisoner who sets off a detector. In that time, the prisoner can make it to his cell and stash his spoon in the bed.
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_alphaBeta_
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Postby _alphaBeta_ » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:26 pm

CplHenderson wrote:Finally, it can take a while for a guard to actually search a prisoner who sets off a detector. In that time, the prisoner can make it to his cell and stash his spoon in the bed.

I've been seeing a lot of this lately, especially for the cell blocks close to the contraband rooms. This goes back to the whole issue of guards not being able to hail prisoners or catch up to them very easily. Guards essentially give chase across the whole prison until the prisoner arrives at their destination and stops long enough for the guard to catch them. I wouldn't care if they ran sometimes, but compliant prisoners with nothing to hide should stop if the guards could order them to.

Other possibility is a turnstile or some other device which either thins out the mix of prisoners going through chokepoints or locks when there's a detection. After playing with the 3-sec delay, I think I can live with it, but it seems silly that you set off a metal detector and someone actually searches you 10 minutes later. That would be the same as finally getting searched when you make it to the plane.
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Ric666
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Postby Ric666 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:42 pm

Can you post a screenshot of your prison & we may be able to spot some things? :)
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Postby FlyingPurpleHippo » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:51 pm

I've had the metal detector go off and the guards search him 3-5 in-game hours later.
If it takes too long I search his cell just to be sure.

My suggestion for keeping metal out of prisoners hands is pack metal detectors tightly around contraband riddled rooms, and have a guard patrolling right next to it so he can catch them quickly (if not, do as I said above).
Also while the prisoners are occupied outside their cells (and not causing trouble) I do a sweep of the cell blocks to catch tunnels before they become a problem.
If your workers are occupied with something else and the prisoner tries going back to the tunneled cell, lock the door so he needs to find another cell while your workers come.

Also, if you can afford it, put metal detectors at the main entrance to the cell block (example: a building has 1 entrance to a cell block of ~24 cells, and so place it at the entrance/exit). That way if they enter with contraband you can catch it (or leaves with it).

Hopefully that helps, the way I designed my prison it seems to work.
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Postby _alphaBeta_ » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:01 am

Ric666 wrote:Can you post a screenshot of your prison & we may be able to spot some things? :)

Well here's what I'm talking about (click the thumbnail below to enlarge). Prisoners exiting the canteen can easily make it back to their cell before being searched. The new policy settings only give the player the ability to search a cell automatically if contraband is found. This means that prisoners who successfully make it back to their cell before being searched will essentially get away with keeping it, unless the player clicks each prisoner who sets the detector off and orders a search of their cell. Only other way to find it is via shakedown, or dumb luck later on.
Image
I like the idea of necessitating a guard to "man" the detector. First off, this guard can be the one that essentially holds up the line and searches the prisoner immediately before any others go through. This is the most realistic, and the 3 second delay can still stay, but have it further add to the delay of searching the prisoner right there. Think of the three seconds as the guard getting back into position in order to receive prisoners to still come through. This delay, along with the necessity of a guard, will provide some game balancing by increasing detector effectiveness, while deterring their over placement throughout the prison.

FlyingPurpleHippo wrote:My suggestion for keeping metal out of prisoners hands is pack metal detectors tightly around contraband riddled rooms, and have a guard patrolling right next to it so he can catch them quickly (if not, do as I said above).

Trouble with this is, there's no guarantee that the guard posted right there will be selected for the job (unless he's a dedicated guard as above, or staff selection of jobs is enhanced from how it is now). The game will sometimes select a more idle guard farther away, which is the problem in this case. The prisoner can't have a head start.
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Postby zaroba » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:35 am

To me that looks way to close and insecure. But then, I could just be over-worrying it, lol.


I've always used metal detectors at the exists of cell blocks, and before going into any room the prisoners use. Be it shower, common room, canteen, laundry, workshop, sometimes even the yard. The metal detectors are in their own little room with a guard assigned. This forces the guard to be next to them at all times, and the extra doors can provide extra security during riots. Or, if they are set to normal mode then any prisoners will have to stop and wait for the guard to unlock the door, also giving time ot get searched if he set off the detector. This doesn't work well during regime hour changes though when everybody has to go threw at once.

Image

Metal Detectors before going in the Canteen at top right
Metal Detectors before going in the showers at bottom right
Metal Detectors before going into the cell blocks
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Postby _alphaBeta_ » Tue Sep 03, 2013 3:48 am

Appreciate you posting your ideas of a dedicated metal detector room. As you say, during regime changes there's just too many prisoners going through. While this would improve the detection rate since your prisoners are going through more detectors, I don't think it addresses prisoners making it back to their cell before being searched. Even if that stationed guard actually searches prisoners going through, he can only handle one a time. The second or third detection will go right through and make it to their cell before a search.

I was about to suggest a "detection room" be added to the game that would have some influence on the doors by closing them in the event of a detection (I'd like to see a main entrance airlock room that only allows one door at a time to be open as well). I don't think this would help either since the regime change throng would already be pouring through the door, so it wouldn't be able to close unless the first few prisoners set it off.

I'm still thinking manned detectors or an object that stops prisoners directly, such as an automatically locking turnstile, is the way to go. In your case, you wouldn't need so many detectors if the contraband rooms had guards assigned to each detector and searched immediately upon a detection. In fact, this system would discourage over-using them as I previously pointed out. In your example you'd need a dozen dedicated metal detector guards and that's enough incentive to not spam them everywhere.
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Postby zaroba » Tue Sep 03, 2013 4:10 am

lol, well of course if it was 100% impossible for a prisoner to go past something after setting off an alarm there wouldn't be need to build a lot of them except for speeding up traffic flow.


But, I should mention that pic is from the high risk only prison I'm currently doing, it has blocks of only 10 cells and thus more detectors.
I use the same strategy in low risk only prisons with blocks of 50+ cells and 25+ tiles between canteen and closest block. Plenty of time for guards to catch the prisoners before making it back to the cell blocks if you have extra ones unassigned. I generally expect the detectors to catch people when they are *leaving* an area with contraband instead of trying to get them when they enter an area.
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby Neddleson » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:26 pm

Maybe apply harsher punishments in your policy, not sure how much it repels prisoners from getting contraband again though at the moment
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby Kelderek » Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:37 pm

Maybe it would make sense to have multiple exits from the contraband source rooms, each with its own metal detector. The idea then would be that the prisoners would take the closest exit and would naturally end up splitting between available doorways reducing the likelihood of having a large group make it past undetected during that 3 second time frame. It's not perfect, some would still get through, but you would be able to catch more of them.
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby peardude » Wed Sep 04, 2013 11:28 am

maybe is guards ran faster, they would catch the prisoners more often
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby fiascov » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:15 am

I noticed many prisoners will try and smuggle stuffs in on their first day.
I put a couple Metal Detectors at my entrance in the Delivery area, and another couple down the hall...
They catch 3-5 items every intake, and search is easy because they are already handcuffed/guarded.
Although I wish they would get searched immediately instead of at their destination.

I'm sure you have already done this, so consider it a tip for new players :D
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby TooDAMNMuch » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:56 am

you know, after reading this, to hell with metal detectors at choke points, i'm gonna go update my prison on the workshop (Slave Labor) to have a metal detector outside every single cell in the facility as well. :twisted:
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Re: I'm really perplexed...

Postby sburymozza » Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:34 am

TooDAMNMuch wrote:you know, after reading this, to hell with metal detectors at choke points, i'm gonna go update my prison on the workshop (Slave Labor) to have a metal detector outside every single cell in the facility as well. :twisted:


Still dose not stop them stashing in there room b4 the guard arrives as they will be entering there cell when its triggered, earlier you catch them the better, maybe set up workshop and use walls to separate the tools so you have 2 in on section 2 in another and so on, each section has metal detection so when they leave there going through in 2s not 20 at a tiime

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