Introversion

Remember there have been tens of thousands of Prison Architect forum posts:
. If you're having a problem playing or running the game, it is highly likely that someone else has had it before and solved it.
. If you have suggestions for the game it is highly likely that someone else has suggested them previously

So, before posting:
1. Reduce your suggestion or question to a concise and clear summary that describes the idea/topic. This is the title for your post. Make sure it uses lots of relevant nouns, as these are what users will be searching for.
2. Pull out the two or three nouns from the title that are the most relevant to your idea.
3. Go to search and paste your three nouns into the search box. Then select 'Search for all terms'.
4. At the very least, read the subject lines of the results. If there are too many pages, try adding more relevant nouns to your search.
5. Post your suggestion or question only if yours is not already listed.

edit: 6. If posting a suggestion, please post only one suggestion per post and include the word [suggestion] in the title.

I vote this for sticky.

+1 for sticky

Only thing missing is that people should "think" about how there idea is going to work and add a few benefits and also down falls there could be, i find it rather annoying how people write down they have an idea but then dont say how they see it working or how its going to impact things already incorporated.

Guess what im saying is more detailed explanations into there ideas/suggestions.

Can I also suggest one suggestion per post?

xander

Good catch. Done.

Thank god, someone finally made a post like this! Paktsardines, you should start to work as a moderator on the forums. Just sayin'.

Edit: Rephrased a few things.

This would be great if there was a way to enforce it... but there isn't. So, all I see here is another attempt at putting the ends before the means, yet again. Trying to make this place efficient is more inefficient than you realize.

This ruleset in itself is alright for the most part and if it gets stickied, that'd be great, but no one can lock or move topics, so I'm afraid that it may not do much. The forums are still going to be a disorganized mess because you will not be able to enforce rules you have no direct control over. This might only cause more frustration and cause people to get barked at even more. I certainly hope this post will not be used as permission to bark at them.

As for keeping topic discussion together... I am fine with that and have tried to encourage others to do so. Just keep in mind that bumping really old threads is typically ingrained into most people's heads as being the wrong way to do things on a forum. So, you can't expect people to just suddenly not feel guilty about doing something that they would normally consider a bad idea. Not to mention, people won't want to necro something wihen there is looming fear that their reason for doing so wouldn't be up to the standards or viewpoints of the "police". I have seen the "police" put threads (and people) down for any reason whatsoever, especially if they don't like an idea, they don't think it will ever happen, or it doesn't benefit them, specifically.

Be aware that people may necro a topic without having much to contribute other than "I like this idea!" simply because they saw the idea or had the same idea and want to endorse it or start it back up for discussion. If you get angry at them for doing exactly what you told them to do, but it wasn't your way of doing it, then at that point you aren't just trying to keep things organized, but trying to control the people themselves.

As for having one topic per suggestion? That would still be hundreds of topics from each member and there are no sub-forums or moderators to reorganize them in, so I doubt that will clean things up much, but we'll see.

I am willing to attempt to follow these rules, but if I continue to see constant sarcasm, bullying, and overly controlling attitudes from the "police", then forget it.

@Spectre

I agree, there are no ways to really enforce rules other than to ask people to follow them and i admit i would like more mods or even the current ones to speak up more and say something but, it seems that will not be happening. So whats better? Complete and utter chaos or asking people to follow rules and then maybe ignoring them if they dont? (i will ignore people i have no issues with ive already decided to ignore a few on this very forum).

As for keeping discussions together it makes perfect sense, whats easier to read? One topic with the same idea complete in it or 10 posts with the same ideas spread out and the same stuff probably copied just worded differently? Id prefer a thread thats moths old bumped rather than a new thread made with the same ideas copied over and having to read multiple threads, what if i missed a good idea thats in the odl thread and not in the new one?

You also say necroing is bad because someone will just say "i like this!" what if a person reads through five threads and has to go though the "ballache" of doing this?
"Yes i like the idea that x was on about in this thread and can see it working well with this idea i saw in this other thread (about the same thing) and can see this being a really good thing if we also incorperated this other idea in this thread (again about the same thing) and as i was reading this idea in this thread here... (yup you got it about the same idea) i thought i would expand and give my ideas on this then combine them all and see how they worked together!"

As you can see 3-5 threads read and linked to and the person is either A making a new thread or B necroing one thread to keep the other as bay so it makes sense to just update on thread!

As for one idea per post it makes sense again, id prefer a thread about one thing than multiple things so the thread isn't going in the wrong direction, lets say im interested in idea #5 but the thread for 5 pages has been on about idea #3 that people are arguing about, my comment is just going to get lost in the wind so my input is... pointless!

The thing this forum needs is more moderation, a set of rules that the paid users agree with (and stick by, not saying being nazi's you can give input if you feel like it) but also something that the mods and admins think is a good idea and will actually enforce if they think a thread is going no-where.

Example:

Well seems this thread has gone off track and now just an argument where to post ideas, for this reason im closing the thread so it can re-appear in the right area.

If you wish to continue your discussion about your idea please post "Developers forum link"

#Closed

Used that as the example as thats what most arguments are about, well that and who ate all the donuts... wasn't me

if something dont make sense i apologise, its 3:15am and ive had a drink... or two while playing uplink, well onlink.

Xoligy wrote:So whats better? Complete and utter chaos or asking people to follow rules and then maybe ignoring them if they dont? (i will ignore people i have no issues with ive already decided to ignore a few on this very forum).

No, I don't want chaos. lol And yes, that'd be wonderful if they *asked*, but the thing is.. they usually don't just ask. All I've ever seen them do (aside from paktsardines *very* recently in the past day or two) is bark and act superior and sarcastic and treat everyone else like dunces and expect them to follow rules that are completely devised from jaded pet peeves. If things are changing around here, great... but if not...

As for keeping discussions together it makes perfect sense, whats easier to read?

I know it makes sense. I never doubted that. I'm fine with the idea of necroing as I have always thought that not being able to bump a topic you are interested in was a stupid idea that forums universally adopted. I am only warning that this is not what most people would default to and they will most likely feel guilty doing so, so there is no need to compound that by making them feel more guilty if their reason for necroing a thread is not up to snuff.

You also say necroing is bad because someone will just say "i like this!"

No, I didn't say it was bad. The "police" have said that. I'm just letting them know that it will happen and if they get angry at a person for doing that, that would be shitty.

what if a person reads through five threads and has to go though the "ballache" of doing this?

This is exactly what the "police" want the people to do, and although I half-heartedly agree, it shouldn't be a major deal if a person does bump a thread no matter what the post contains, whether it's a single line or a page-long report, because it has already been deemed okay to bump if you have the same idea. If there is then a rule put in place that a thread being necroed has to have a "good reason" as dictated per the "police's" viewpoints of what a good reason is, that is when it starts to get draconic.

I hope that made more sense? I realize my original post was a knee-jerk reaction, so I will rephrase it some.

I was very tempted to make and maintain another suggestions thread similar to koshensky's Current Suggestions Compilation List. I had it formatted and updated etc. and ready to post. I held off posting it because of some of the reasons already identified in this thread. As everything stands now, I have no issues with paktsardines's suggestion.

In the event that IV brings on some volunteer moderators on the forums and wiki, I think we can do a better job. This is an Alpha, what could be more important than suggestions, their discussions, and feedback? I can't speak for Chris and crew, but if it were me, I'd want to know what the suggestions from the community are and be able to read the associated discussions. I'd also want them organized in one place since I'm busy coding a game and don't have time to find suggestions amongst the sea of threads, posts, and searches.

As koshensky said on the Current Suggestions Compilation List, the wiki is probably where the master suggestion list belongs. It can be collaborated by multiple users and not tied up in one person's thread where they're the only person that can change it. koshensky did a great job, but this particular list hasn't been updated in months. Short of copying the list to a new thread and having a new maintainer (who could also move on to other things), there's nothing much any of us can do.

I don't think wiki's are great for lengthy discussions. That's a personal opinion. I also think forums are much easier for the general public to get their ideas articulated. I think having the master list maintained on the wiki with links back to the forums is the best way to proceed. In the case of a single suggestion being spread amongst many threads, one should be chosen to continue the discussion and paired with the suggestion on the wiki. This "chosen thread" should not change afterwards without a very good reason.

Here's where the moderation comes in. Wiki moderators enforce the identification of the "chosen thread" in the master list. Forum moderators post official guidance to check the master list first, and continue discussions in the "chosen thread" for that suggestion. Forum moderators can enforce the guidance by politely closing duplicate threads and providing a link to the "chosen thread." This keeps the relevant discussions all focused and in one place. These boards are a bit older, but perhaps moderators can merge threads as well.

New suggestions could be kicked off either in the wiki or forums depending on the users' comfort level with the forum vs. wiki interface subject to the same guidelines.

Also, please note that the Mantis database has a severity of "Feature Request". We really should put them there.

Spectre Incarnate wrote:No, I don't want chaos. lol And yes, that'd be wonderful if they *asked*, but the thing is.. they usually don't just ask. All I've ever seen them do (aside from paktsardines *very* recently in the past day or two) is bark and act superior and sarcastic and treat everyone else like dunces and expect them to follow rules that are completely devised from jaded pet peeves. If things are changing around here, great... but if not...

Text is a poor medium for conveying nuances of meaning and emotion. What you are perceiving as rudeness is more likely simply brevity. If you assume that people on the other end of the internet are actually trying to help and not intentionally being rude, perhaps you will find that your perception of rudeness is somewhat exaggerated.

Spectre Incarnate wrote:I know it makes sense. I never doubted that. I'm fine with the idea of necroing as I have always thought that not being able to bump a topic you are interested in was a stupid idea that forums universally adopted. I am only warning that this is not what most people would default to and they will most likely feel guilty doing so, so there is no need to compound that by making them feel more guilty if their reason for necroing a thread is not up to snuff.

On most forums, the general rule seems to be "don't bump old topics unless you have something valuable to add, and the older a topic is, the greater your contribution to that topic should be." A "Me too!" post or "+1" adds nothing of value to a topic, hence such a post really shouldn't be made unless the topic is quite fresh. This seems to be what most of us old timers are complaining about---pointless bumps of long dead topics.

Another point: if your post is not worth bumping an old topic, it certainly isn't worthy of a whole new topic all to itself.

Spectre Incarnate wrote:No, I didn't say it was bad. The "police" have said that. I'm just letting them know that it will happen and if they get angry at a person for doing that, that would be shitty.

Can you cite specific examples that do not fall into the category of "pointless bumps" outlined above?

xander

Lance_Lake wrote:Also, please note that the Mantis database has a severity of "Feature Request". We really should put them there.

Also a possibility that I didn't mention, and can certainly be done. Mantis has category designation as you've said, has the ability to discuss (although still not as feature savvy as forums), is searchable, and even the option to vote on support, which is ideal for suggestions. There's a few tweaks I think the PA Mantis implementation could undergo in order to better accommodate a large amount of suggestions, but it's certainly capable.

Although it's one of the tweaks I'd recommend, the current Mantis implementation does not allow titles and descriptions to be updated by a user other than the original author. The wiki is still more collaborative in this regard. Plus, I really don't see people discussing the suggestions exclusively in Mantis. People like forums. Either the forum moderators close every suggestion thread in the forums, or you allow the suggestions to be discussed in both places. Once you let the latter happen, however, I think the solution begins to become counterproductive.

This really comes down to what IV wants to use for suggestions. Do they even need them so organized anymore? They may have a master list themselves somewhere and read the forums regularly for updates. They may have a plan that outlines everything they plan to introduce already, which doesn't have room for a whole lot more content. It's only worth putting a system together, beyond the current forums posts we're doing now, if it's going to get some use and make a difference.

xander wrote:Text is a poor medium for conveying nuances of meaning and emotion. What you are perceiving as rudeness is more likely simply brevity. If you assume that people on the other end of the internet are actually trying to help and not intentionally being rude, perhaps you will find that your perception of
rudeness is somewhat exaggerated.

Brevity, you say? Mmm. Shall I show you some of this supposed brevity?

"I think what most people here are getting wrong is that MULTIPLAYER IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN."

"Wow... just... wow..."

"Day/Night cycle ...GREAT IDEA"

"Excellent! Perhaps they could also add the feature of being able to build a 'Prison' to put our prisoners in... now that would be something!"

Don't insult my intelligence and pull a political bullshit on me. I am quite capable of making the distinction between rude sarcasm and brevity on the internet. You are not being brief in your explanations and so-called "help". Try grief, instead. Most of you are incapable of treating people with respect. The OPs of these threads even called you guys out on this stuff, but you refuse to listen and/or apologize for your attitudes. You just leave the thread and go on to harangue some other thread in the exact same way.

Sarcasm can be fun. I love to use sarcasm in the right situations or toward good friends, pets, and inanimate objects. But you should not use it to disrespect a stranger and make yourself look superior. Sheer ego, that is.

Now, I have already said, I will continue to follow these rules and help others to do so, but only if they do not turn you all into even worse advocates of your version of "brevity".

A "Me too!" post or "+1" adds nothing of value to a topic, hence such a post really shouldn't be made unless the topic is quite fresh. This seems to be what most of us old timers are complaining about---pointless bumps of long dead topics.

As I said, I only half agree with this. The reason being... If it was a typical forum where it was only about discussion and making points, then yes, that type of post should probably be avoided. However, this forum is not just for discussion, it's also to show the devs what your opinion is on a particular idea. So, I don't see a problem if a person wants to endorse an older idea thread with a simple +1 or "Great idea!" after finding the thread and really liking the idea. If they don't have much else to say about it, who cares? It's simply to show the devs their yes/no opinion on the matter and bring it back up for discussion if anyone wants to do so. It's just another vote, albeit a *brief* one.