[Suggestion] Interconnections between existing features

[Novbert]

As I see, currently the main thing which prevents PA from becoming a really deep, layered gameplay experience is the lack of interconnections between features. There's a whole bunch of features (objects, rooms) which can only be used for a single thing and using them only have positive effects, and there are many features which aren't even needed in a mature, well-functioning prison.

Basically you can run a prison successfully without:
- Holding cell
- Yard
- Infirmary
- Morgue
- Solitary
- Visitation
- Storage
- Security
- Common room
- Cleaning cupboard
- Workshop

On the other hand most of the need-fulfilling object lack any obvious downside. E.g.
- Phone Booth
- TV
- Weights Bench
These are cheap, small, they don't have any running cost, and the more you have of these, the happier your prisoners will be.

I think that instead of (or besides) packing whole new features in the game, it would be great if interrelations between the existing objects and rooms would be developed. I also think that using each and every object and room should have a negative side effect besides the obvious benefits.
Note that some of the below ideas have already appeared on this forum, but I list them here anyway as I consider these as interconnected suggestions, which might work best if implemented as a package, not one-by-one:

Visitation and Phones

- Phones decrease the Family need BUT they should have a cost based on usage. (On the other hand - as it is now - visitation decreases the family need without running cost, but with the chance of contraband getting smuggled in)

Infirmary and Morgue

- Working prisoners (and probably even working staff members) should have a chance to suffer accidents. I know that it has been proposed before, but I emphasize this because - having this feature - it would make sense to maintain an Infirmary and a Morgue, even if there aren't any riots.

Common room

- You shouldn't be able to place any types of objects anywhere. TV, Pool table, Phones may only be placed in Common rooms. Common rooms should not be in the same zone with other rooms (e.g. Kitchen, Yard), they should be separated by walls and doors. These might sound like unnecessary limitations, but if these aren't supported, I think Common Room has to be removed from the game entirely as it serves no purpose.

Solitary

- Not having a Solitary might encourage prisoners to misbehave - as they know that they shouldn't expect brutal punishments. On the other hand, if a prisoner spends too much time in solitary, he should get depressed, even up to the point of suicide attempts. Succesful suicides (or every death of an inmate for that matter) might also lead to depressing thoughts/anger in all the prisoners.

(Security

- Well...to be honest I'm not sure what the purpose of that room is. Theoretically it's there to place CCTV terminals in, but the room requirements rather resemble an office, and CCTV isn't even required there - they work properly if placed on an empty room. Is this intended or some sort of a bug?)

Excercise need

- Weight benches should increase the strength of prisoners - running around the yard should increase their speed. This would make the decision on how to fulfill the exercise need a bit more interesting, as they'd lead to different challenges in case of a riot.

Additional needs

- Prisoners should have a need to breath some fresh air. This need could be fulfilled by sending them to the Yard, or - to a lesser extent - by putting windows in their cells. Yardtime might increase prisoner traits (they excercise there), while windows may encourage escape attempts. At the same time, the types of object you can put in the yard should be limited (e.g. only Benches, Weight benches; no electrical devices apart from Lights and Metal detectors).
- Prisoners should have a need for clean environment. Time spent in a dirty room should increase that need, time spent in a clean room should decrease it.
- Prisoners should have a need for lights. Time spent in unlit areas should make them depressed.
- Prisoners should have a need for privacy. They should go crazy if held in a holding cell for too long (even if all the other needs are met). Only slightly related, but prisoners should also have a need to poo Privately - Bladder and Bowel needs should decrease much slower if there are others in the same room.

Costs of need-fulfillment

- All electrical devices and all water-based devices should have a running cost - you should pay the bills.
As prisoners probably need a given amount of water to shower, fulfil toilet needs etc., it might be a good idea to give a chance for them to 'misbehave' - leave the shower running, leave the TV on and staff members would be needed to switch of those devices to avoid large bills.
- Utilities, and generally speaking every single device in the prison, especially the ones Prisoners generally interact with should need maintenance and should have a chance to get broken depending on the amount of money you spend on maintenance. Unhappy/bored prisoners might break objects just for the fun of it. Additionally: You shouldn't be able to create closed loops in either the water or the electricity system. This way if first section of the main water pipe breaks down, your entire prison will be left without water - so you'd should keep an eye on guarding and maintaining it.
- (if the above mentioned additional costs aren't enough for that) Basically everything in the game should be more expensive. Having a Storage and a Workshop would make much more sense if object weren't that cheap. (Though it's rather a game-balance thing, which will probably only be finetuned in Beta)

Would these be implemented, and you would think twice, exactly how many TV-s, Phones, Cookers or even Showerheads you really need. It would also be a great gameplay element if the player would have to figure out, what is the minimum amount he can spend on maintenance to avoid riots (e.g. some toilets in the cellblocks are maybe always broken, but those prisoners are able to fulfill their toilet need in a shared toilet). With the additional costs, it would also make more sense to maintain a Workshop, and a Storage.

If every other thing would remain the same I think these changes would result a much richer and deeper gameplay experience. What do you think?

[Safilpope]

Some interesting ideas there!

Re phones/visitation: I don't think telephones should completely fulfil the family need. Maybe it should fulfil 75% of it, but not the whole bar. As the game stands now visitation is right at the bottom of my priority list, I can just add a few telephones instead.

Not sure about electric/water/phone bills, I think it'd need to be explored more deeply before I could make up my mind

[Novbert]

Some interesting ideas there!

Re phones/visitation: I don't think telephones should completely fulfil the family need. Maybe it should fulfil 75% of it, but not the whole bar. As the game stands now visitation is right at the bottom of my priority list, I can just add a few telephones instead.

Not sure about electric/water/phone bills, I think it'd need to be explored more deeply before I could make up my mind

Well, the bills-maintenance system was mostly proposed to:
- Provide some obvious downsides for putting any objects/utilites/whatever in your prison. Currently you can put a TV, a Phone and a Weight Bench and a Shower in every single cell and it doesn't cost you anything apart from their purchase cost (which is laughably low).
- I loved that part of SimCity 4 when you've cut the budget of utilities maintenance (e.g. to keep tax rates low) and the town started to fall apart due to water and electricity shortages. I think it would provide another layer of necessary optimisation of resources when you plan your prison layout.

[Bohbo]

I would love to see the security room serve more purpose. Like check-in (processing before holding or cell assignment) and check-out (release exit). Rather than released prisoners finding their own way out, they would report or be escorted to a security room where they would be processed for release. This is assuming you have a security room otherwise they would find their own way out or be escorted as it is now.

[Xoligy]

Security Room

This ciould have a few things attached to it:

Prisoner and/or visitator searching - a guard would search all visitors before entering the building for contraband, not 100% sucess rate as they are smart... sometimes!
Phone line monitoring - Seen it in prisons just an idea no use till gangs come into play really and escapes
CCTV designation (at moment a room with no designation is suitable)
Could also be a place where guards go for breaks (if implemented) and grab hooch or things they "might" of smuggled in

I would write more for other things but its movie time, i do like the idea of running costs and maintenance, of cause they can be turned on/off depending on difficulty level (easy no costs, medium some costs hard high costs and everything costs).

[MAdMaN]

I would love to see the security room serve more purpose. Like check-in (processing before holding or cell assignment) and check-out (release exit). Rather than released prisoners finding their own way out, they would report or be escorted to a security room where they would be processed for release. This is assuming you have a security room otherwise they would find their own way out or be escorted as it is now.

The security room as it currently works (CCTV monitoring station) should not be used for processing. Processing should be it's own room, as you wouldn't want your prisoners being able to see where the cameras are, especially in areas they're not allowed in.

[manlymeatman]

I think they should also add a maintenance cost to saws and presses, for example, have a chance that the machines will break down. That could give more importance to having workmen in the later game because, at the moment, having multiple workmen after your basic prison is made has very little upside. They could also make the chance of machines breaking down be based off of how many workmen you have or how dirty your prison is. If the developers didn't want to make the workmen affect maintenance then they could even add a new staff member like a handyman if they decide to go that route.

[HerrJoebob]

To me, workmen are overused as it is... they'll even take care of most kitchen tasks if you have no cooks. Giving them more to do during the day would gum up the works, IMO.

I like the idea of a handyman though! You'd always have to keep a little stash of cash to get repairs done, and he could do the fixes while the workmen are building stuff. As it is, I basically can't build during the day or my workshops grind to a halt.

[manlymeatman]

Yeah, I think they should make the prisoners get their own sheet metal, unless the workmen aren't doing anything.

[Novbert]

The security room as it currently works (CCTV monitoring station) ...

That is simply not true. CCTV monitors work perfectly without being placed in a security room, and Security rooms work perfectly (for whatever purpose they currently have) without CCTV monitors.
As I see Security room currently serves no purpose at all.

[MAdMaN]

The security room as it currently works (CCTV monitoring station) ...

That is simply not true. CCTV monitors work perfectly without being placed in a security room, and Security rooms work perfectly (for whatever purpose they currently have) without CCTV monitors.
As I see Security room currently serves no purpose at all.

By only quoting the first small part you've taken my comment completely out of context. I was saying that having CCTV monitors in a room that prisoners are searched, which is what some people are suggesting, in is a bad idea. In the current version each room has a single purpose, so a separate room should be made for processing.

[Pallemaker]

A lot of good ideas, Novbert! I particularly like your ideas considering additional needs:

Additional needs

- Prisoners should have a need to breath some fresh air. This need could be fulfilled by sending them to the Yard, or - to a lesser extent - by putting windows in their cells. Yardtime might increase prisoner traits (they excercise there), while windows may encourage escape attempts. At the same time, the types of object you can put in the yard should be limited (e.g. only Benches, Weight benches; no electrical devices apart from Lights and Metal detectors).
- Prisoners should have a need for clean environment. Time spent in a dirty room should increase that need, time spent in a clean room should decrease it.
- Prisoners should have a need for lights. Time spent in unlit areas should make them depressed.
- Prisoners should have a need for privacy. They should go crazy if held in a holding cell for too long (even if all the other needs are met). Only slightly related, but prisoners should also have a need to poo Privately - Bladder and Bowel needs should decrease much slower if there are others in the same room.

To go a bit further, I suggest incorporating depression into the game. The needs for privacy, fresh air and cleaniness could all together with e.g. the family- and recreation-needs affect another "super-need" reflecting the overall mood of the prisoners. This "super-need" could be called "happiness".

Prisoners with really somewhat low happiness could get angry (as they are today), while prisoners with really low happiness would rather get depressed. Depression may cause prisoners to (passively) defy the regime, by e.g. not going to work, not getting up from bed in the morning, not going to the canteen to eat etc. This sets depressed prisoners aside from angry prisoners: while angry prisoners react by starting fights, smashing up their cell etc, the depressed prisoners react by doing nothing.

Depressed prisoners may weakened by lack of food (even ill/diseased, if illness/disease is incorporated later on) and their depressed state of mind, and do all the stuff they do a lot slower than usual (if they do them at all). If they are at an absolute low, depressed prisoners may attempt to kill themselves. Suicides should have a negative impact on the mood of other prisoners, making them either less happy (/more depressed) or angry. The different reactions reflect the different personalities of your prisoners.

Depressed prisoners could also be sent to the psychologist for treatment (this would give the psychologist a new use, which I think would be good). Otherwise (that is, if you want to run an inhumane, right-wing hellhole), there could be an option to "secure" the suicidal prisoners cell with padding (or designate him to a new kind of "security cell", a permanent, padded alternative for your suicidal prisoners) and regular searches to deprive the prisoner of any possibilities of suicide, and also in some way, forcing him to follow the regime.



What do you think?

[Novbert]

Pallemaker: I'm glad you like them. Actually some of the additional needs suggested here - and elsewhere - have already been implemented for Alpha 13, yay!

Depression is something I've also briefly mentioned at solitary, but you've went into greater detail here. Generally speaking I agree on your points. I also think that prisoners rioting because of lack of family contact is a bit unrealistic, but this could be circumvented by applying your 'mood' idea.

I also agree on your proposed model of suicide, and that it should be included in the game. Based on the latest Alpha features, I think the next logical step is prisoners actually dieing if their basic needs aren't satisfied for very long (i.e. in a very punishment-centric environment), and once that's done, dieing inmates should also affect on other prisoners' mood. Then we are at mood modelling, happyness-depression modelling, suicide attempts, padded cells, and psychiatric treatments.

I hope the IV guys also see this as the logical progression of (this line of) features.

[Pallemaker]

Yay! I haven't had the time to play alpha 13 yet, so that's a nice surprise.

I agree that these ideas aren't the next logical step, but are more long-term implementations. I hope the developers agree with your steps forward (at least when they have finished the current contraband/escape-part). Prisoners dying or getting ill/diseased from lack of need-fullfillment (starvation etc) would go a long way to make driving a hell-hole a bit more challanging, and the infirmary and morgue a bit more useful. In general I hope the developers continue to expand on the existing features and potential of PA to get a deeper, more challanging gameplay (where all the rooms and objects in the game have pros and cons, and most are needed to a greater or lesser degree).


- Pallemaker