[idea] Add multi levels

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Garnasha
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Postby Garnasha » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:32 pm

xander wrote:
Spectre Incarnate wrote:
xander wrote:
Garnasha wrote:3. It'll follow another good example set by Dwarf Fortress.

Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress. Copying features from anther game just because said other game is good is not creative nor innovative, and is no guarantee that the features under discussion would be worthwhile.

As I see it, right now, there is no good gameplay reason to provide extra stories. Most of the suggestions for why it is a good idea focus on (1) time to get from one place to anther, which can easily be justified as a gameplay / balance issue that intentionally makes larger prisons harder to manage, and (2) a way of introducing lots of features that don't currently exist (steam pipes, skylights, catwalks, and so on). It seems to me that Prison Architect is doing a pretty good job of being a 2D management sim, much like the original SimCity. Why wreck that simplicity?


Very sorry, but I disagree. Considering I am here because of the promo video where Mark specifically said in his dorky dramatic voice, and I quote...

"Prison Architect!..... Inspired by Theme Hospital, Dungeon Keeper, and DWARF FORTRESS."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDDzSOS0vzc


It is like read "Prison Architect is not Dwarf Fortress," and stopped reading. Since you didn't respond to anything that I actually wrote, but rather some strawman of your own invention, I don't think that I need to say anything else.

JamesBr: <snip>

xander
Perhaps because there's very little to respond to? Or perhaps he did answer all your points and you shouldn't stop reading his post halfway through?
"Realism is a weak argument" is a weak argument, only valid if realism would interfere with gameplay. If you can increase realism while conserving gameplay, increase realism, it's a sim, realism within reason adds to the quality.
"Maybe the game devs don't want efficiency and compactness" is a very weaselly statement, which he basically countered by referring to DF as an inspiration, which has effective, compact prisons... I mean fortresses, they're just ALSO very, very big and liable to become Fun at any moment. And there's your answer regarding aesthetic/narrative arguments, that argument is shot down by simple virtue
"It's not DF, it's becoming a good 2D like SimCity" was replied to explicitly, so if you think he didn't answer that, go back and read again.


To the guy saying "Team Hospital was flat": yes, both in layout and in gameplay, compared to PA. Zones? Security? Supply chains? Absent, Absent and Only if you count people as goods. Team Hospital was a much simpler game, at least spatially and probably overall. It's also quite old by now. I recently bought it on GOG and played it again. You know what else TH doesn't have? Fully rotatable objects. They face front-left or front-right.

xander wrote:JamesBr: You, also, are attacking a strawman. Who is arguing that multiple stories would be too complicated? I have argued that they are unnecessary and that they add very little to the game as it is now. Not that they would be too complicated (from a gameplay perspective), but that they don't fix with the theme very well (the simple aesthetic---contrast complex aesthetic with complex gameplay).
Thank you for making that argument clearly, instead of the earlier wool which Spectre dealt with. Regarding simple/complex: Sorry to have to point to DF again, you can't get much simpler aesthetically than ASCII art, and that's a hugely complex game. Regarding necessity: They would hurt very little, and I disagree that they would add very little. For example, they'd allow overpasses, which allow you to keep staff, normal and high security prisoners separate. 2D is mathematically limited in a quite fundamental way, which hurts zoning (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utility_graph ). There's a lot of things z-levels allow, some of them fundamental, many of them aesthetic (compactness is a design ideal, lots of PA players are designers at heart).
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Postby JamesBr » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:52 pm

xander wrote:snip

JamesBr: You, also, are attacking a strawman. Who is arguing that multiple stories would be too complicated? I have argued that they are unnecessary and that they add very little to the game as it is now. Not that they would be too complicated (from a gameplay perspective), but that they don't fix with the theme very well (the simple aesthetic---contrast complex aesthetic with complex gameplay).

xander


The statement I made might be a bit hyperbolic (and maybe I should have said "complex" instead of "complicated", but that's splitting hairs), but considering YOU are arguing how the added complexity (technically or aesthetically) wouldn't add much, I feel there something to argue against. "Doesn't fit aesthetically" is a very subjective opinion that I don't agree with anyways. How doesn't it fit aesthetically? It would look the same as it does now, but with the ability to go up and down at a key stroke. That is simple, elegant and opens up entire new dimensions of gameplay (pun intended :P), aesthetics has nothing to do with it.
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paktsardines
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Postby paktsardines » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:20 am

I've only been here a few days and already I know you tend to change the subject and twist words to make yourself look superior and I really have no interest in pandering to your petty nonsense. Rolling Eyes

Wow, really? You were suggesting that Prison Architect be multi-story because it's inspired by dwarf fortress. You then referenced a quote in which dwarf fortress was mentioned along-side theme hospital and dungeon keeper, only you had selectively emphasised dwarf fortress.

I selectively un-uppercased DWARF FORTRESS and emphasised Theme Hospital instead. The point of my post was that Prison Architect's decision to be single-story might equally have been inspired from Theme Hospital.
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Postby lmaoboat » Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:27 am

Puns aside, I'd love to see Z-levels if only for how better you can express your creativity, which I think is a huge part of the appeal of the games this one is inspired by.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:59 am

paktsardines wrote:
I've only been here a few days and already I know you tend to change the subject and twist words to make yourself look superior and I really have no interest in pandering to your petty nonsense. :roll:

Wow, really? You were suggesting that Prison Architect be multi-story because it's inspired by dwarf fortress.

No, I didn't. I said the game is partially inspired by DF and hoped PA would get more DF aspects because it is *one* of the inspirations for the game.

You then referenced a quote in which dwarf fortress was mentioned along-side theme hospital and dungeon keeper, only you had selectively emphasised dwarf fortress.

Correct, I emphasized DF in response to a statement someone else made *about* PA not being DF. Pointing out that DF was at least *one* of the inspirations and the main reason I was drawn to this game. That was the only reason I did that. It's kind of silly to be cherry picking this one.

I selectively un-uppercased DWARF FORTRESS and emphasised Theme Hospital instead. The point of my post was that Prison Architect's decision to be single-story might equally have been inspired from Theme Hospital.

There was no point to your post, except to twist my words on how I originally used caps for emphasis, while triumphantly proclaiming you fixed it. But I did not say it wasn't inspired by TH in addition to the other two. You just don't like that I put emphasis on the part about DF, which was done for reasons I have now explained quite fully.
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Postby HerrJoebob » Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:02 am

Spectre Incarnate wrote:(snip)


Give it up, you're mud wrestling a pig now.
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paktsardines
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Postby paktsardines » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:13 am

There was no point to your post

Wow, stubborn _and_ offensive. I told you my point. If you're rude and insulting then I really cant be blamed for looking superior.
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Novbert
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Postby Novbert » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:23 am

I really like the current flatness of PA and I also think that even if z-levels are introduced, their usage must be very limited using in-game mechanisms (e.g.: by high building costs, or by limiting the amount of z-levels you can use both up and down). Introducing the capability of creating basements, which span dozens of z-levels below, or buildings resemblant of skyscrapers seems to be rather off for me from the perspective of the theme.
Z-levels would be useful to reduce distances between facilities, but this issue could also be solved by implementing support for multiple facilities of the same kind.
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Postby Artophwar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:44 am

paktsardines wrote:
There was no point to your post

Wow, stubborn _and_ offensive. I told you my point. If you're rude and insulting then I really cant be blamed for looking superior.


I dont like to get in forum arguments but the only one I see being stubborn and offensive is you, and in pretty much everyone of your posts I have seen since I joined this forum. You do not look superior to me but you sure seem to think your are.

Back onto the topic at hand, I think maybe a lower and upper level would be fine but I wouldn't want it to go further. Overall I would prefer to keep it a single level and have them just improve the use of multiple same type rooms and the pathing.
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paktsardines
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Postby paktsardines » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:09 am

Okay, I'll bite. Please direct me to the posts where I am stubborn and offensive as you see it.

While I wait, I'll point out that you accused me of 'changing subjects', 'twisting words', 'being petty and nonsensical', 'pointless posts' and 'making myself look superior', and yet you don't see how I consider this offensive? I don't even know you. I apologise if you took offence to my one-liner, which was intended to illustrate a point but, in the nicest possible way, you're being a bit of a dick.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Wed Aug 07, 2013 9:24 am

Artophwar wrote:I dont like to get in forum arguments but the only one I see being stubborn and offensive is you, and in pretty much everyone of your posts I have seen since I joined this forum.

Haha, that's almost exactly what I said....
By the way, welcome to the forums. I think?

Back onto the topic at hand, I think maybe a lower and upper level would be fine but I wouldn't want it to go further.

Yeah, having a basement and second floor would totally suffice for now. There's always the possibility of modding in extended floors if the basics of having a few floors were put into place. I could try asking my brother to help out with that, even.

Another option could be to enter the number of floors you would be okay dealing with, both up and down, before starting a new game., That would allow for people who only want to work on flat land to continue to do so and still have the option available for those that want to create a Leaning Tower of Pisa Penitentiary. :D
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Postby Artophwar » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:47 am

Spectre Incarnate wrote:Haha, that's almost exactly what I said....
By the way, welcome to the forums. I think?


Thanks for the welcome.

Spectre Incarnate wrote:Another option could be to enter the number of floors you would be okay dealing with, both up and down, before starting a new game., That would allow for people who only want to work on flat land to continue to do so and still have the option available for those that want to create a Leaning Tower of Pisa Penitentiary. :D


Starting Options are always a nice way to do it. They could have a setup screen like Civilization where you choose from a variety of things to customize your experience.

paktsardines wrote:Okay, I'll bite. Please direct me to the posts where I am stubborn and offensive as you see it.


You exhibit passive aggressive behaviour towards people who may have posted in wrong section or failed to use the search. You may think your doing it in the "nicest way possible" but it doesn't come off like that.
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Postby Spectre Incarnate » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:36 am

....

Huh.

I apologize for any confusion, Artophwar, as I had to think about this a little, myself... but I do believe pakt thinks that you are me.
As much as I like Prison Architect, and as much as pakt thinks he warrants enough importance to be argued against with a fake account, I have no desire to create another account for something so stupid as that. Bad enough having an account for each of the four PA sites as it is. :lol:

This is really getting to be quite ridiculous. I think I'll go snooze for a bit.
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Postby Person012345 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:40 am

Guys, don't get irate because someone posted a silly opinion. They have no idea whether there will be multi stories most likely and just because they say some nonsense about how there's no good reason to add stories and how adding good things isn't good doesn't mean it necessarily won't happen. It's just their opinion, who cares.

Personally I'd like to see multiple stories. Yes gameplay trumps realism, but multiple stories wouldn't be detrimental to gameplay, so derp. It would allow far more choices with regards to prison design and noone is going to force you to use it. Plus, it will add to the realism, which a lot of people like. Although I could certainly live without it and I'd understand if it never got added.
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Postby Person012345 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:44 am

Artophwar wrote:
Spectre Incarnate wrote:Another option could be to enter the number of floors you would be okay dealing with, both up and down, before starting a new game., That would allow for people who only want to work on flat land to continue to do so and still have the option available for those that want to create a Leaning Tower of Pisa Penitentiary. :D


Starting Options are always a nice way to do it. They could have a setup screen like Civilization where you choose from a variety of things to customize your experience.

I'd view that as unnecessarily complicated. There is a simple solution for people who don't want to have multiple z-levels if z-levels are added - Don't build on multiple z-levels. It's not like this is a competitive multiplayer game, if you don't want to do something that is completely unnecessary, don't do it.

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