Random Aggression Needed?

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xander
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Postby xander » Thu Jul 25, 2013 8:05 pm

MAdMaN wrote:
xander wrote:In Darwinia, the DGs will run from grenades. Thus the code for aversion clearly already exists somewhere in the IV super library.

It's already in the game. Workmen avoid areas where prisoners are out of control.

Oh, clearly. I was merely speculating about how the specific DG-avoiding-a-nade behaviour might affect prisoners who don't want to engage in fighting. That is, what might happen on a very local level, rather than the more global Workmen-avoid-dangerous-areas level.

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Postby Zaka51 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:46 am

I agree that there definitely needs to be some more factors to make the prisoners act crazy. In a prison of about 70, most of which were maximum security inmates, I had to shove everyone into lockdown for almost 48 in-game hours before anyone started getting violently angry. When I let them out, some people started fighting but after some heads got cracked everyone went back to being mellow.
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Postby GC13 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:00 am

Yeah, in a well-run prison even maximum-security prisoners are kittens. Ten-hour workdays? That's fine. I can even remove the jail doors leading to the staff doors on the exits and they won't make a run for it. They'll only act up if I remove the staff door, and I think prisoners will pretty much always go for a blatant opening. At least a sufficiently high percentage of prisoners that you'll almost automatically trigger an escape attempt by leaving a hole.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby nini » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:26 am

I don't get why people really want a prison which has at least one largescale riot a day that kills 40 people. It's that whole Dwarf Fortress mentality where the game is so incredibly difficult that it's only fun for the masochists. I know a prison without problems is a boring one but there has to be better challenges than "everyone's having a fight, try and stop the fight without losing more than 20 lives" because constant fights are just as mind-numbingly boring as nothing happening as are eternally unhappy inmates who'd kick off the second they get hungry.

Needs to strike a better balance between being a game with constant fires to put out and and another with long-term challenges which aren't about the inmates as much.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:19 am

I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Several posts, including my original one, come out and say the objective is not full scale riots. We've discussed small-scale fights and skirmishes. While the original context of this thread was several alpha releases and months ago, the issue remains that one rarely sees a small fight between a handful of prisoners that isn't immediately preceding a massive riot. I'm more looking for a few inmates that have a disagreement of sorts that results in some roughhousing. Unless the guard coverage is terrible, I wouldn't expect any deaths, but injuries and damage to property.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby blacksythe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:36 am

The grants is certainly one place to start. In defining a challenging game, forward from that i believe you can increase the chance of getting a lethal trait in a prisoner for example ive been toying with the biographies file for a while now and i am only really scratching the surface on what can be done without major coding reworks. My most recent mod I think is a good place to start see if i can make low level prisons harder by giving prisoners a 100% chance of being violent
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby RichieGrape » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:12 pm

i was thinking about this as well and was thinking if prisoners where assigned say a star sign (virgo,scorpio, etc) it could than just be programed that say virgo & scorpios don't get along...and the longer those two are near each other the more chance of them just breaking out into fight and maybe pisces like virgos and will help them if i fight breaks out with them...

star signs probably isn't the best idea but its just and example...might need more than 12 diff groups to make things feel random
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby blacksythe » Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:38 pm

RichieGrape wrote:i was thinking about this as well and was thinking if prisoners where assigned say a star sign (virgo,scorpio, etc) it could than just be programed that say virgo & scorpios don't get along...and the longer those two are near each other the more chance of them just breaking out into fight and maybe pisces like virgos and will help them if i fight breaks out with them...

star signs probably isn't the best idea but its just and example...might need more than 12 diff groups to make things feel random


If you view the code to the game something which hasn't really cropped up is gangs, but it is there - how active it is I dont know.

Essentially the best way to do this is by creating a dynamic system where when you build your first prison at first the number of gangs is 0 and the prisoners themselves control who is in the gang simply by the game checking there traits.

e.g.
Prisoner 1 has controlling trait + violent trait
Prisoner 1 creates gang 1
prisoners 4,7,8 and 9 join his gang

gang one may be viewed as an offensive/defensive gang

prisoner 2 has controlling trait + Sexual trait
he creates gang 2
prisoners 3,5,6 and 10 join his gang

gang 2 may be viewed as "the sisters" taken this from the shawshank redemption
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:38 pm

Gangs and even astrological signs seem like a way the underlying simulation could track gripes and quarrels between prisoners instead of it happening in a purely random way. I think some care would be needed though such that every time differing prisoners come together it doesn't develop into a problem. That would be too much I think. Otherwise, another dynamic would be to give the player tools of tracking these affiliations and being able to further segregate based on them by grouping game members together besides or in addition to segregation by security level of the prisoner. This would certainly add gangs as a very big part of the simulation, and may be a little much for the macro-manager players. Of course having an option available for this would keep everyone happy as usual.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby HeroFV » Sun Jan 26, 2014 9:11 pm

I like where this thread has gone :P

I firstly agree that most of these things talked about could be turned on or off. A good point made here is that some people micro manage and some people macro manage. Some of us like to build huge prisons and see how big things can get, in which case, too much small stuff is too hard to track constantly. On the other hand, some people build smaller prisons and like to interact a bit more, in which case, the small stuff is where the fun is.

I like the idea of random disasters, as well as the idea of random aggression. These definitely need an option to turn off but can add plenty of entertainment. Note these should be 2 completely separate options. Essentially one as large scale having to do with the environment and one small scale having to do with small brawls.

I think it would be really good to space out the full-blown riot level. I agree that it would be cool to have a small brawl break out and the other prisoners surround them and not get involved.

Also waiting for the gangs to be brought in lmao Which, I also think would be a good idea to be in addition to the idea of having personal "grudges". The "star-system" seems very logical (noting here the point isn't actually zodiac signs :P).

A good way to balance which of these is used or not is in game modes. One mode could be something like building a smaller prison and having a ton of difficulty things to have to always keep a close eye on prisoners and micro manage everything. Another mode could involve making a prison as big as possible, in which most of the small things are turned off and it's designed around the idea of most of the prison managing itself through settings.

All in all, I'm pretty excited to see what PA looks like when it is finally polished and finished!
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby nini » Mon Jan 27, 2014 11:51 am

_alphaBeta_ wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Several posts, including my original one, come out and say the objective is not full scale riots. We've discussed small-scale fights and skirmishes. While the original context of this thread was several alpha releases and months ago, the issue remains that one rarely sees a small fight between a handful of prisoners that isn't immediately preceding a massive riot. I'm more looking for a few inmates that have a disagreement of sorts that results in some roughhousing. Unless the guard coverage is terrible, I wouldn't expect any deaths, but injuries and damage to property.

I've heard it mentioned from some on the forum that hints to wanting to have a harshly aggressive game both for the prisoners and player and for me that's somewhat dull. I don't want to see random aggression amped up until rioting becomes less frequent but I do agree with the principles of wanting fights between smaller groups.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby _alphaBeta_ » Mon Jan 27, 2014 2:42 pm

Fully agree that the space between fully calm and full-on riot needs to be spaced out considerably. I think this thread has good discussions on what can be used to fill in the gap. I'd further agree that bystander prisoners will be a really nice touch. Plus, if they circled up around the fight, it would be much easier to see how's actually fighting. More on that here.

I really like the idea that's been mentioned about guards waiting and not necessarily breaking up a fight as soon as it starts. Would be an interesting policy addition for guards to follow. Perhaps the right-wing hell-hole wardens would prefer if prisoners continue their one-on-one fights to let the prisoners get it out of their system (would this lead to suppression?). Perhaps the left-wing wardens would prefer to have the guard receive backup before parading into the fists solo. Some additional options would be necessary, especially to control when the guard does intervene or pushes the panic button after a configurable amount of prisoners become involved.

Guards waiting makes sense from a realism point as well. Unless the guard is right there as soon as the fight starts, and the policy is to intervene immediately, I'm not sure how many guards are going to attempt to breakup a fight that's in progress solo. I would think they'd wait for backup.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby Kezarus » Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:24 pm

Yep, small fights should be a great addition!

Among the suggestions, when I first put my eyes on the Zodiac Sign Thingy, I didn't like it very much. But, you know what? It will add a lot of depth to the game. A lot.

If you have "12 or so groups" of people, where 1 like/dislike other, this leads to fights/interactions between the prisoners just beacause it's there. It will have nothing to do with the thermometer system or the needs system. So small fights/interactions could happen.

This could be demonstrated in the game by a sign of tension between 2 prisoners (a red pulsating line?) when the 2 are close. Could be triggered at the colision event between the 2 prisoners and be susteined for an amount of time before it disperses or evolves to a fight/interaction.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby nini » Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:10 pm

I think the zodiac sign concept is good but it has to hinge on something more grounded than astrology of all things but I guess that's for the Gangs subsystem.
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Re: Random Aggression Needed?

Postby HeroFV » Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:52 pm

nini wrote:I think the zodiac sign concept is good but it has to hinge on something more grounded than astrology of all things but I guess that's for the Gangs subsystem.


Well see, the actual zodiac thing was simply an example. The point is having essentially "random" interactions between prisoners that stays on a small scale. It likely would end up being more than just 12 too, to make it feel more random. It also would apply to every prisoner. It's a way of giving the sprites a lil personality :P

The gangs are a bit different. That's most likely going to be the sort of thing that will erupt into riots without some sort of control. I don't think it would make sense to make every prisoner part of a gang, either.

The 2 are similar in theory, but most likely would be quite different in practice ^^ I think it would make sense to have both. They would also compliment each other. For example, if a fight is started by the "zodiac" system and one WAS in a gang, it could lead to a bigger event :mrgreen:

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