A good way to implement gangs

[malthus]

Love the idea would add an interesting mechanic to the game and planning/segregation would require extra thought.

[ZeroOne3010]

I agree gangs are needed in the game, prisons seldom are "every man for himself" kind of places. What I'm wondering though is if nobody here has actually ever watched Oz? I haven't seen anyone reference to it here, yet it's the definite TV prison show with six seasons and an IMDB rating of 9.0. Even though it's originally from 1997, the show hasn't really aged a day.

In Oz, there are ten gangs: the Aryans, Bikers, Christians, Gays, Homeboys, Irish, Italians, Jews, Latinos and Muslims. Finally, there's also "the Others", defined as not belonging to any gang but loosely sticking together. I guess my main point here is that in LennyLeak's post the word "gang" seemed to be synonymous with "a violent group tightly sticking together", which just seems to be a false assumption. The Christians and the Gays, for example, aren't very violent in Oz -- however, they may occasionally hire a Biker to do some dirty job for them.

I'd also question the loyalty to the group. Prisoners may have been forced to join a group, for one -- especially the Aryans seemed to like to do that. Others might not consider themselves Aryans but have asked to join willingly for protection, to not to get shanked by them or some other gang. There are also many in-gang tensions when somebody or some group of people inside the gang thinks the gang is led by the wrong man...

The Aryans and the Homeboys as well as the Aryans and the Muslims are practically in a constant state of war, but during free time they generally try to just avoid each other or try to be civil, as nobody really likes to get thrown to solitary.

Just some comments. Basically I think that almost anything the devs could bring into the game from Oz would be quite awesome. I bet ideas drawn from the show alone could fill countless amounts of pages here.

[Azarath]

I LOVE Oz, feel like watching through the whole series now..

Lenny: That's what I meant with guards affiliated to gangs, either smuggling things, or more likely helping them get some "alone" time with a rival gang member etc.

[LennyLeak]

I agree gangs are needed in the game, prisons seldom are "every man for himself" kind of places. What I'm wondering though is if nobody here has actually ever watched Oz? I haven't seen anyone reference to it here, yet it's the definite TV prison show with six seasons and an IMDB rating of 9.0. Even though it's originally from 1997, the show hasn't really aged a day.

In Oz, there are ten gangs: the Aryans, Bikers, Christians, Gays, Homeboys, Irish, Italians, Jews, Latinos and Muslims. Finally, there's also "the Others", defined as not belonging to any gang but loosely sticking together. I guess my main point here is that in LennyLeak's post the word "gang" seemed to be synonymous with "a violent group tightly sticking together", which just seems to be a false assumption. The Christians and the Gays, for example, aren't very violent in Oz -- however, they may occasionally hire a Biker to do some dirty job for them.

I'd also question the loyalty to the group. Prisoners may have been forced to join a group, for one -- especially the Aryans seemed to like to do that. Others might not consider themselves Aryans but have asked to join willingly for protection, to not to get shanked by them or some other gang. There are also many in-gang tensions when somebody or some group of people inside the gang thinks the gang is led by the wrong man...

The Aryans and the Homeboys as well as the Aryans and the Muslims are practically in a constant state of war, but during free time they generally try to just avoid each other or try to be civil, as nobody really likes to get thrown to solitary.

Just some comments. Basically I think that almost anything the devs could bring into the game from Oz would be quite awesome. I bet ideas drawn from the show alone could fill countless amounts of pages here.

Yeah, I've watched the whole show, and loved it. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but I'll remind you that Oz is just a TV show. I have no practical experience with prison, but I have seen many hours of documentaries about prison life (mainly about american prisons). I think that Oz is somewhat unrealistic in many aspects, which is of course also explained with the whole show being based on an experimental prison unit - an attempt for a type of resocialising SHU. I think that while many inmates find religion, there are no real religious gangs as such. I know that in some prisons the homosexuals are segregated in special units, but AFAIK the homosexuals in max sec. can be just as violent as anyone else. I agree that there may well be internal power struggles, but I think they are somewhat rare. And certainly no freshman who joined for protection is going to try to overthrow the senior members. AFAIK gangs in prisons are made up by 'prison gangs' (that are based in and around prisons, e.g. The Arian Brotherhood) and 'street gangs' which are gang members from the streets that are in jail. The street gangs are mostly divided into sets (e.g. The Crips have both 'Rollin' Sixties' and 'Eight-Tray Gangster Crips' whom are at war with each other). But all gangs fall under the race umbrella, and everyone is expected to back up their own race if there are problems. While it would simplify things, I think my proposal is a good compromise of realism and gameplay.

Lenny: That's what I meant with guards affiliated to gangs, either smuggling things, or more likely helping them get some "alone" time with a rival gang member etc.

That would be awesome!

[ZeroOne3010]

Yeah, I've watched the whole show, and loved it. I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but I'll remind you that Oz is just a TV show. I have no practical experience with prison, but I have seen many hours of documentaries about prison life (mainly about american prisons). I think that Oz is somewhat unrealistic in many aspects, which is of course also explained with the whole show being based on an experimental prison unit - an attempt for a type of resocialising SHU.

Well, then we are basically on the same page, but perhaps we read it differently. I don't have any first-hand experience from any prisons either (most of the people don't), but I gather that in real life prisons are pretty boring. In Oz, all the events happen for one reason and one reason only: the drama -- because, just like you said, it's a TV show. Now, I'd much more like my game to resemble a well written TV show than a real life prison. After all, whose day to day life would you rather follow from TV: Oz's or some real prison's? Watching TV and playing games aren't that different: you want to be entertained.

[LennyLeak]

Well, then we are basically on the same page, but perhaps we read it differently. I don't have any first-hand experience from any prisons either (most of the people don't), but I gather that in real life prisons are pretty boring. In Oz, all the events happen for one reason and one reason only: the drama -- because, just like you said, it's a TV show. Now, I'd much more like my game to resemble a well written TV show than a real life prison. After all, whose day to day life would you rather follow from TV: Oz's or some real prison's? Watching TV and playing games aren't that different: you want to be entertained.

Point taken! I nearly only play simulator games, so I guess I just assume that everyone is out for realism. I see your point though, and on that note I still think the whole tunneling thing is a great concept even though it is more fiction than fact. But I still think that it should feel as authentic as possible, and I think the realistic gang structures facilitate the drama quite well. Unless there is a good reason to do it another way I would prefer things to be as authentic as possible, only going the way of fiction when real life is not enough. I think that moderne max sec prisons have a plenty of drama as a whole, even though the day may be uneventfull for the individual prisoner. But as I said, I get what you're saying, and I agree to some extent. Thanks for clarifying.

[Diceman]

Croxteth and Norris Green on the same cellblock!

[111none]

Croxteth and Norris Green on the same cellblock!

[JASPer.Gamer.9.0]

It seems that gangs are close to being implemented, so I think this topic should be continuously bumped as it has descriptive ideas of how to implement gangs. Then, the developers can use this as a kind of base for the gang system. After the base, they could implement some of their ideas.

Unfortunately, I am probably much too late. It seems gangs are very close to being released in A28/29/30. So, I think the devs should just implement their version, and then add the features in this post that are not yet added.

Please post below to show your ideas and support to the gang system.

AMEN, Gang System.

--
Jasper.Gamer.9.0 (Darwinian Level 3 now!!)

[Karrade]

This is a decent way to do it.

The reason i so badly want them in, is two fold

1) Realism, because it's not just an issue in america, it's a universal issue in prisons across the globe.
2) Challenge! It's the biggest challenge in prisons Organised responses, organised gang structures to deal with, prisoners working together. Relations between the gangs would be tracked, not relations between prisoners, so we can keep the macro feel and help deal with any trouble spots before they happen.

Officers dedicated to investigate gangs, insider trading going on, and gang reform programs would exist ideally also.

The way you describe it here, it would be a slowly growing issue in prison which I like as it wouldn't hurt the early game too much, while being a mid/late game thing as and when your population got big enough.

Personally i'd have population number be the trigger. At 20 inmates, gangs should be non existent, 200 and there maybe 3 on the go, with a max cap of maybe 50 involved, more if you are dealing with max sec. So the security rating of your prison could raise or lower the cap, and likelihood someone would join a gang.

A min sec prisoner just won't care to join most of the time, while a max sec prisoner has a fair chance, especially one with addictions or violent behaviors or a trait like former gang member etc.Very occasionally that min sec that joins might commit a crime for a gang, which gives him more time, and bumps up his rating (this is perfectly realistic and often happens), so the progressing there would work, it should just be a rare thing.

I would still keep race out of it myself, no need for it to be in, plenty of gangs that are not just based on race going on out there.

[JASPer.Gamer.9.0]

I would still keep race out of it myself, no need for it to be in, plenty of gangs that are not just based on race going on out there.

I also think that.

[Shardul]

Well we have got some really strong foundations here I would say. This has to be implemented as in most prisons in the world gang or unity exists. what this is going to cause is this that in 11 prisoners 1 is going to cause havoc.This is going to be extremely challenging. Well i dot have much to say since you mention it so precisely but this should be implemented and if it does get implemented the game is gonna be a hell lot of fun bro!

what i suggest is lets have religion for gods sake in the game just for fun for making the gangs. I mean it would be complex if there are white guys Mexicans mix.
You cannot detect them so fast if they are mixed but if 10 black guys stick together in yard play pool together and go to work together sit of benches in canteen side by side then we can detect them as the black gang and can punish the leader literally this he stops doing stupid shit.

What else i can say is to have gang changing AI . If a prisoner abandons his gang then its okay he is no under the protection of the gang leader but if he joins another gang AND does trechary he is gonna be killed . This will give more targeted stuff.
thanks . nice thinking

[JASPer.Gamer.9.0]

Well we have got some really strong foundations here I would say. This has to be implemented as in most prisons in the world gang or unity exists. what this is going to cause is this that in 11 prisoners 1 is going to cause havoc.This is going to be extremely challenging. Well i dot have much to say since you mention it so precisely but this should be implemented and if it does get implemented the game is gonna be a hell lot of fun bro!

what i suggest is lets have religion for gods sake in the game just for fun for making the gangs. I mean it would be complex if there are white guys Mexicans mix.
You cannot detect them so fast if they are mixed but if 10 black guys stick together in yard play pool together and go to work together sit of benches in canteen side by side then we can detect them as the black gang and can punish the leader literally this he stops doing stupid shit.

What else i can say is to have gang changing AI . If a prisoner abandons his gang then its okay he is no under the protection of the gang leader but if he joins another gang AND does trechary he is gonna be killed . This will give more targeted stuff.
thanks . nice thinking

Nice ideas. But I think No Religion should be put in. People will get angry at "their religions being showed off".

[czar mohab]

Nice ideas. But I think No Religion should be put in. People will get angry at "their religions being showed off".

This is only the tip of the iceberg.

Religion can and should be introduced into the game. Even if only as something for idle prisoners to do. It should not, however, focus on any one specific denomination or ideology (even though this isn't exactly the case in some, perhaps most, prisons). When done correctly, no one should be offended or angry; it'll just be a generic place of worship with a generic guy with a holy book.

I understand where you are coming from. Religion can be (and historically has been) a touchy subject with people, mostly along the line of one point of view being correct while another is not. As long as no particular point of view is pushed in game it should be a non issue. Besides, you don't *have* to build the room or hire the staff if you don't like.it, just like you don't *have* to build a holding cell or classroom.

The Czar

P.S. Honestly, if a particular denomination is desired, it should be handled via mods.

[xander]

...holy book.

I am offended that you would suggest a holy book. Everyone knows that the one true lord can only be understood through the consumption of pasta! Holy books are an abomination!

xander