Current Suggestions Compilation List

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xander
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Wed Feb 12, 2014 9:11 pm

shimmler wrote:...but that is an extremely poor design choice. I mean, have you ever seen 1-floor prisons (except concentration camps and gulags, that is)?

You claim that it is a poor design decision, but cite only reliance on reality to justify that claim. A proper game design should consider gameplay, aesthetics, and realism, probably in that order. That is, good gameplay should come before aesthetic decisions, and aesthetics ought to be prioritized ahead of reality. To that end, how would multiple floored prisons effect the gameplay of Prison Architect? How would they improve gameplay and how would they hurt gameplay? How would multiple stories fit into the aesthetic of Prison Architect?

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby shimmler » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:12 pm

xander wrote:
shimmler wrote:...but that is an extremely poor design choice. I mean, have you ever seen 1-floor prisons (except concentration camps and gulags, that is)?

You claim that it is a poor design decision, but cite only reliance on reality to justify that claim. A proper game design should consider gameplay, aesthetics, and realism, probably in that order. That is, good gameplay should come before aesthetic decisions, and aesthetics ought to be prioritized ahead of reality. To that end, how would multiple floored prisons effect the gameplay of Prison Architect? How would they improve gameplay and how would they hurt gameplay? How would multiple stories fit into the aesthetic of Prison Architect?

xander


It would improve gameplay in one great way - prisoners won't have to spend tremendous amounts of time to going between cell blocks and workplace/canteen/yard and all other facilities. Going down the stairs is faster than moving additional 100 meters cause there is another cellblock building in the way.
I hope my point is clear enough.

Have you ever palyed Dwarf Fortress? If yes, can you imagine playing it with 1-z level again?
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:30 pm

shimmler wrote:It would improve gameplay in one great way - prisoners won't have to spend tremendous amounts of time to going between cell blocks and workplace/canteen/yard and all other facilities. Going down the stairs is faster than moving additional 100 meters cause there is another cellblock building in the way.
I hope my point is clear enough.

Have you ever palyed Dwarf Fortress? If yes, can you imagine playing it with 1-z level again?

I'm not sure that I see that as an improvement in gameplay. It would be different, but different is not the same as better. Yeah, one could plan a prison with multiple floors and prisoners would move around more efficiently, but part of the game is arranging a prison in two dimensions in order to get everyone where they need to be. Multiple floors would make the game easier, which is not necessarily an improvement.

As to your point being clear, there was never a question of clarity---you just didn't make an argument beyond realism, which is a very weak argument.

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby The73rdMongol » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:18 pm

Small item suggestion: Potted Plant. Would look good as an accent piece and to "de-bland" hallways and rooms.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby shimmler » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:05 pm

xander wrote:As to your point being clear, there was never a question of clarity---you just didn't make an argument beyond realism, which is a very weak argument.


lol wut?
you just quoted my argument - much more efficient movement for inmates and personnel across the prison. If I was only mumbling about realism, I would start pointning out that it mustn't take prisoner 1 hour to move 200 meters or that how come that 5 yers sentence is carried out in one week.

If you think taht multiple floors system is such an exploit (which sounds really strange, to tell the truth), you are totally free to use your house rules and stick to the silly 1-floor only layout. But because you personally don't like the idea of multimple stories it doesn't mean it's bad. Hell, about half of people ont he forums would love it for sure, so that perfectly testifies that it is a reasonable feature to have, albeit the fact that it won't happen because of the engine limitations.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:12 am

shimmler wrote:
xander wrote:As to your point being clear, there was never a question of clarity---you just didn't make an argument beyond realism, which is a very weak argument.


lol wut?
you just quoted my argument - much more efficient movement for inmates and personnel across the prison. If I was only mumbling about realism, I would start pointning out that it mustn't take prisoner 1 hour to move 200 meters or that how come that 5 yers sentence is carried out in one week.

I apologize that I wasn't clear. Your original argument was not unclear, it simply was not an argument beyond an appeal to realism.

shimmler wrote:If you think taht multiple floors system is such an exploit (which sounds really strange, to tell the truth), you are totally free to use your house rules and stick to the silly 1-floor only layout. But because you personally don't like the idea of multimple stories it doesn't mean it's bad. Hell, about half of people ont he forums would love it for sure, so that perfectly testifies that it is a reasonable feature to have, albeit the fact that it won't happen because of the engine limitations.

You miss my point. I didn't say that it would be an exploit, I said that it would change the dynamics of the gameplay, and not all of the changes are necessarily positive. Now, one could play by whatever house rules that they want, but the job of the game developer is to create the rules and dynamics to suit their vision, not the demands of vocal players. Personally, I don't care much in either direction (I am mildly opposed to the idea of multiple stories because I think it would complicate the UI, not fit particularly well aesthetically, and not add very much to the game; though, again, I don't have a strong opinion either way)--but the effect on gameplay is not unequivocally positive.

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby Kezarus » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:45 pm

MULTIPLE FLOORS (thanks, but no thanks)

I grow tired about our weekly suggestion for multiple floors. The devs won't implement it for a number of reasons. Let's have it, shaw we:
- PATHFIND: It will screw up the pathfinding, one of THE MOST CPU consuming algoriths in a game like this. Many strategy games limit their unit cap for this reason alone in a 2D map. In a 3D map you make the matter even worse. The PA is interesting with 50 to 400 prisoners. If you mess with floors they will probably have to limit the damn thing to a handful (like The Sims).
- UTILITIES: how they could split the utilities layout? Another sub-floor? Doesn't seem to be a good idea, is it?

For the players it's bad too.
- GAMEPLAY: in a multi-floor you can't see were all the prisoners are at once. You have to navigate floor by floor. Make transparent floors will not help to clarify a 5-floor mess it will generate.
- PREDECESSORS: past games that inspire Prison Architect (Dungeon Keeper and Theme Hospital) where good as they are without multiple floors. You know a game that have multiple floors like you say? Towns. Navigate in Towns' map is troublesome at best. If you want to taste what PA will look with m-floors try Towns. (SPOILER: it's awful)

As PA is now it's easy to use, clear, manageable, fun and less complicated. Multiple floors will not improve the game, it will screw it up. If that isn't reason enough I fail to see what is.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby shimmler » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:14 pm

Kezarus wrote:MULTIPLE FLOORS (thanks, but no thanks)

I grow tired about our weekly suggestion for multiple floors. The devs won't implement it for a number of reasons. Let's have it, shaw we:
- PATHFIND: It will screw up the pathfinding, one of THE MOST CPU consuming algoriths in a game like this. Many strategy games limit their unit cap for this reason alone in a 2D map. In a 3D map you make the matter even worse. The PA is interesting with 50 to 400 prisoners. If you mess with floors they will probably have to limit the damn thing to a handful (like The Sims).
- UTILITIES: how they could split the utilities layout? Another sub-floor? Doesn't seem to be a good idea, is it?

For the players it's bad too.
- GAMEPLAY: in a multi-floor you can't see were all the prisoners are at once. You have to navigate floor by floor. Make transparent floors will not help to clarify a 5-floor mess it will generate.
- PREDECESSORS: past games that inspire Prison Architect (Dungeon Keeper and Theme Hospital) where good as they are without multiple floors. You know a game that have multiple floors like you say? Towns. Navigate in Towns' map is troublesome at best. If you want to taste what PA will look with m-floors try Towns. (SPOILER: it's awful)

As PA is now it's easy to use, clear, manageable, fun and less complicated. Multiple floors will not improve the game, it will screw it up. If that isn't reason enough I fail to see what is.


Judging by your arguments palying Dwarf Fortress should be the most horrible gaming experience ever. Except that it's not. Cause it's awesome.

Also, on that that "you can't see all your prsionores omg" argument. I suggest disable scrolling and limit the map to your screen size. Cause when you scroll - oh noes! - you loose some prisonoers out of sight.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Thu Feb 20, 2014 10:51 pm

shimmler wrote:Judging by your arguments palying Dwarf Fortress should be the most horrible gaming experience ever. Except that it's not. Cause it's awesome.

Way to state an opinion as though it were a fact! Personally, I can't stand Dwarf Fortress---to much micro and an arcane and unintuitive UI. There. Our two opinions cancel out.

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby shimmler » Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:30 am

xander wrote:
shimmler wrote:Judging by your arguments palying Dwarf Fortress should be the most horrible gaming experience ever. Except that it's not. Cause it's awesome.

Way to state an opinion as though it were a fact! Personally, I can't stand Dwarf Fortress---to much micro and an arcane and unintuitive UI. There. Our two opinions cancel out.

xander


It doesn't need UI, you just need to remember hotkeys. That's it.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:48 pm

shimmler wrote:It doesn't need UI, you just need to remember hotkeys. That's it.

What you just wrote makes absolutely no sense at all. UI stands for User Interface---the hotkeys are the UI. They are arcane and unintuitive.

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby nini » Sun Feb 23, 2014 10:38 am

Maybe he was thinking GUI without taking into account arcane keyboard hotkeys which are also part of a UI.
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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby xander » Sun Feb 23, 2014 6:16 pm

nini wrote:Maybe he was thinking GUI without taking into account arcane keyboard hotkeys which are also part of a UI.

I am quite certain that he was. However, I was very careful in my choice of initialisms. ;)

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Re: Current Suggestions Compilation List

Postby shimmler » Mon Feb 24, 2014 9:33 pm

Yeah, sorry, I meant GUI.
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Brilliant idea giving 'the chair' a purpose

Postby franksnb » Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:23 pm

idea..
physiologist alerts you to the presence of vv high risk prisoners and allow you to track their progress (1 or 2 max).
the experience they (VV high risk) have in your prison sets their re-offend chance.
if they re-offend it will be a serious offence that lands them back in your prison on death row.
killing prisoners harms your reputation and value (and your soul) therefore rehabilitating VV high risk prisoners is of utmost importance.

game play impact..
-physiologist alerts you to the presence of vv high risk, they have their jump suit recoloured black for example
-create a special wing for the vv high risk inmates or have them in with the general population
- rehabilitate the vv high risk prisoners may be a mission goal or rewarded in some way (reputation, value)
-failing to rehabilitate results in them returning as a death row prisoner
-choosing to execute inmates on death row effects the moral of the prison staff (adversely) and inmates (adversely) but may halt riots.
-choosing not to execute and prolong death row stay costs big $$ per death row inmate but your reputation is unaffected
-not executing may annoy the local attorney or (whatever) harming purchasing power of land, food or the number of new prisoners per day etc etc..

boom! this is gold right? i await my job offer.

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